How & when did that embolden come about?

[percho]

I wanted this in the thread, sovereign or in control of everything yet decided to put it here.

Did the Potter form the lump exactly the way he wanted it to be?
Romans 9:20,21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature (soul). Gen 2:7 YLT

Romans 7:14 οἴδαμεν γὰρ ὅτι ὁ νόμος πνευματικός ἐστιν ἐγὼ δὲ σάρκικός εἰμι πεπραμένος ὑπὸ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν

English - I yet fleshly am

 

[atpollard]

Yes.
At each stage in the process, the lump of clay is in the form that the Potter's hands have shaped it ... the necessary form for the next stage to reach the final form.

Including the Romans 7:14 quote ignores the obvious literary contrast between "flesh" and "spirit" that is at the heart of that particular discussion, making it "apples to oranges" with Romans 9 and Genesis 2.

 

[percho]

Yes.
At each stage in the process, the lump of clay is in the form that the Potter's hands have shaped it ... the necessary form for the next stage to reach the final form.

Including the Romans 7:14 quote ignores the obvious literary contrast between "flesh" and "spirit" that is at the heart of that particular discussion, making it "apples to oranges" with Romans 9 and Genesis 2.

so that the law, indeed, is holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good.
for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; Rom 7:12.14

And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed;
And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:7.16,17

Romans 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,
Galatians 3:22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness, 1 John 3:4

and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; Gal 4:4,5

I believe it is Apples to Apples.

IMHO the only things spiritual in Gen 2 is God the Potter and the law/command he gave Adam and the flesh and blood Adam was, well, a very good, lump of clay.

 

[atpollard]

[shrug]

[Romans 9:19-24 NASB] 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

• about the sovereignty of God in salvation. (apple)

[Genesis 2:4-9 NASB] 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. 8 The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• about the sovereignty of God in creation. (apple)

[Romans 7:14-20 NASB] 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I [would] like to [do,] but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want [to do,] I agree with the Law, [confessing] that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

• about the conflict of the two natures found in man. (orange)