How will the GCR affect seminaries?

[Baptist Believer]

...but when I hear schools like Criswell is liberal, I begin to have questions about the person calling the school liberal.

Personally, I don't think Criswell is liberal, because I know what classic liberalism really is. But it seems to lots of people throw around the word "liberal" to describe anything they don't like or a school that does not enforce complete conformity of thought and discussion.

The friend I referred to at least earned a degree from a Texas Baptist university and then spent about six months at Criswell. I don't know for sure what made him think it was "liberal", but in my early days in the faith I had the experience of receiving a copy of Gleason Archer's "Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties" which really undermined my faith in scripture for awhile -- the exact opposite of what it was intended to do. Because Archer was trying to defend inerrancy, he pulled out all sorts of alleged and legitimate questions skeptics and the faithful have had about certain scriptural passages, and did a decent to miserable job trying to respond to the issues. Strangely enough, in the many instances where Archer handled the issue poorly, I was left with a nagging doubt regarding the issue he raised. It took years (and my time at the Texas Baptist school) to get comfortable with scripture again. I'm completely speculating here, but in my limited experience I have found that a lot of "conservative resurgence" people (I am not one) actually have quite a bit of nagging doubt about the scripture and are fighting those that they perceive as "liberal" in order to defend their threatened personal faith. I believe it is because they have not received good teaching in their churches, nor in their institutions of higher learning. I ran into this all the time in seminary -- students of a more "fundamentaler-than-thou" always seemed on the end of agnosticism/atheism, with any theological issue that couldn't be resolved immediately as a clear and present danger to their spiritual health.

In my undergraduate theological education, we learned that there are going to be things we may not grasp without a number of years of thinking, growth and prayer, but we need to have faith that the Holy Spirit will give us insight and wisdom as we grow in faith.

I believe theological education requires learning the ability to think theologically and study the scriptures for yourself, not just learning a certain theological stance and affirming whatever statement of faith your Baptist group happens to hold at the time.

My faith was deeply shaped and strengthen by my experience at a Texas Baptist university, and I've never felt I was lacking in ability to discuss theological issues with anyone I've met, liberal or conservative, Bible-believing or atheist, rationalist or spiritualist (yes, I know these two last terms are not antonyms).

The same goes when people call Liberty liberal.

Although the root word for "liberal" is "liberty." :wavey:

 

[Havensdad]

Didn't have a professor who did this. However, I have had professors who believed that the explanation of the atonement is much broader and more comprehensive than simply "penal substitutionary atonement."


Didn't have a professor who did this.


Didn't have a professor who did this.


I don't recall anyone "denying" a "literal" six day creation, but I don't recall having that view attacked either. When I first went to my Texas Baptist school, I was undecided on the issue. While there, I became convinced that the Bible taught literal six day creation (although, through my own reading outside of class). It was only when I went to Southwestern Seminary a few years later (after Ken Hemphill became president) that I changed my view to what I hold today: I do not think scripture teaches creation within six literal days for explicit reasons related to what a careful reading the text actually says.


Since these terms mean different things to different people, I'm not sure exactly how to answer this. However, all of my professors had a VERY high view of scripture. I never experienced a professor trying to pick apart the word of God or even suggesting that it was somehow invalid or in error. We spent our time discussing what was being said and what it calls us to do in our cultural context.


Personally, I question the whole idea of ordination the way it is normally practiced in our churches today for both men and women.

In my experience, professors held varying views of the role of women in ministry. When appropriate, students heard these views and were allowed to make up their own minds based on what scripture and their understanding of the issues told them.


I never had a professor advocate or entertain this view.


Nope. Didn't experience this at all. In fact, I thought the standards were about right. I was an R.A. for a year and was involved in tossing several people out for drug use (pot) and sexual impropriety.


I thought the school had the right balance in allowing a bit of diversity of in viewpoints so that the students could be exposed to the issues in a fair and balanced way.

Compared to students from some of the seminaries, I know very few students from my university who have lost their faith over the years.

Behold, Ruiz, my definition of Liberal! As I said, struck out.

 

[Havensdad]

I'm completely speculating here, but in my limited experience I have found that a lot of "conservative resurgence" people (I am not one) actually have quite a bit of nagging doubt about the scripture and are fighting those that they perceive as "liberal" in order to defend their threatened personal faith. I believe it is because they have not received good teaching in their churches, nor in their institutions of higher learning. I ran into this all the time in seminary -- students of a more "fundamentaler-than-thou" always seemed on the end of agnosticism/atheism, with any theological issue that couldn't be resolved immediately as a clear and present danger to their spiritual health.

How absolutely ridiculous can one be. "If you defend scriptural truth, it is because you secretly doubt it." LOL.

How about, if you defend scriptural truth...it is because you believe in scriptural truth, and you actually have the courage to defend it. In my NOT limited experience, through hundreds of interviews done on the street, the Liberals are in general completely ignorant of scripture and theology, but are educated in other disciplines (such as psychology and science) and try to "fill in" their theological gaps with their chosen discipline, rather than taking their information from God's Word.

All I can say is...thank God for the men of the Conservative resurgence, who kept the convention, and the Seminaries, from going the way of most "Texas Baptist Universities."

 

[Baptist Believer]

Behold, Ruiz, my definition of Liberal! As I said, struck out.

Not really.

Almost all of your examples were false (at least, for my Texas Baptist university).

And for the rest, neither the school nor the professors indoctrinated anyone. Simply put, the views were fairly presented and students had to the freedom to challenge, agree or disagree. (How horrible!!)

 

[Ruiz]

How absolutely ridiculous can one be. "If you defend scriptural truth, it is because you secretly doubt it." LOL.

How about, if you defend scriptural truth...it is because you believe in scriptural truth, and you actually have the courage to defend it. In my NOT limited experience, through hundreds of interviews done on the street, the Liberals are in general completely ignorant of scripture and theology, but are educated in other disciplines (such as psychology and science) and try to "fill in" their theological gaps with their chosen discipline, rather than taking their information from God's Word.

All I can say is...thank God for the men of the Conservative resurgence, who kept the convention, and the Seminaries, from going the way of most "Texas Baptist Universities."

I disagree that many liberals are schooled in something other than theology. While many liberal laymen, that may be true, there are many I know who have studied Bultmann and other classically liberal theologians. I strongly disagree with them, but I have had many interesting discussions with classical liberals who focus on their theological worldview.

 

[Havensdad]

Not really.

Almost all of your examples were false (at least, for my Texas Baptist university).

You just said "not really. Almost all your examples..."

Funny. Anytime a liberal starts saying "Well, it depends on how you define the terms..." it means they disagree with it, and do not have the courage to just say so.

And yes, you struck out. The Bible indeed teaches a 6 day creation.Nothing "From the text" says any different.

And for the rest, neither the school nor the professors indoctrinated anyone. Simply put, the views were fairly presented and students had to the freedom to challenge, agree or disagree. (How horrible!!)

Yes, it is horrible. When I teach my Children about Jesus. I don't say "O.K., here are the reasons to follow Jesus, and here are the reasons to follow Satan. Now, you choose."

We are commanded by scripture to teach truth, not present ideas. When someone denies scripture, we don't say "Well, it could be true..." because it couldn't. God is always right, and man is always wrong, when he disagrees with God. And no amount of liberal double speak, and term redefining will change that.

 

[Baptist Believer]

How absolutely ridiculous can one be. "If you defend scriptural truth, it is because you secretly doubt it." LOL.

That's not what I said at all.

Let me try to help your comprehension... In my experience*, I've found that the one's who angrily talk about the "unbelief" of other Baptist Christians in a Baptist context are often filled with doubt themselves. Usually, (unlike you) they don't have any clear idea what they believe constitutes the "liberalism" that they see all around them.

Even though I disagree with a number of items on your list as indicators of "liberalism", at least you can define some basis for your convictions.

How about, if you defend scriptural truth...it is because you believe in scriptural truth, and you actually have the courage to defend it.

Sure. And I count myself in that group.

In my NOT limited experience, through hundreds of interviews done on the street, the Liberals are in general completely ignorant of scripture and theology, but are educated in other disciplines (such as psychology and science) and try to "fill in" their theological gaps with their chosen discipline, rather than taking their information from God's Word.

So you interview liberals on the street? (BTW, "hundreds of interviews" is limited experience. I've dealt with hundreds of people too.)

All I can say is...thank God for the men of the Conservative resurgence...

But not the women?

...who kept the convention, and the Seminaries, from going the way of most "Texas Baptist Universities."

I see you have softened your previous implied blanket condemnation of all Texas Baptist Universities ("horrific, liberal cesspools") to "most Texas Baptist Universities."

Thanks, at least, for that.

---
*Unlike some others around here, I don't claim that my experience fully represents the Absolute Truth of God™

 

[Rhetorician]

Ruiz-MABTS Inquiry

Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, Lynchburg VA
Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, Memphis TN
Mid-West Center for Theological Studies, Owensboro KY

Two I believe were good schools. Mid-West I took classes and were involved in much of what they did in a years time. Mid-America I was there a year before transferring to Liberty due to strong philosophical, educational, and theological differences. Liberty is where I completed most of my work.

Ruiz,

Dear brother, I was wondering what "strong philosophical, educational, and theological differences" you had with Mid America?

As a Mid America alum I am a bit more than curious. Help me here please. You certainly piqued my interest when you said you left MABTS for Liberty. I know Mid America is not for everybody, but if there is more than a proximity or monetary difference, then what could the matter be? :thumbs:

Help me please!

"That is all!"

 

[Havensdad]

Sure. And I count myself in that group.

I know that you think you are in it. Most liberals do.

So you interview liberals on the street? (BTW, "hundreds of interviews" is limited experience. I've dealt with hundreds of people too.)

"Dealing with" hundreds of people, is quite different than interviewing people, directly and specifically, about their beliefs.

Also, yes, I interview liberals (and everyone else) on the street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgekTshxis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swKyQFpENak

But not the women?

I am sure there were women in the background, who were Godly, and submitted themselves to the rules for them laid down in scripture, supporting their husbands, etc. I do thank God for them.

I see you have softened your previous implied blanket condemnation of all Texas Baptist Universities ("horrific, liberal cesspools") to "most Texas Baptist Universities."

Thanks, at least, for that.

Not really. I specifically stated three colleges, two of which did not fit the criteria (one was the college at Southwestern, the other is not a four year college. That leaves only Criswell...the rest are liberal cesspools. Hardly enough to fulfill the need.)

*Unlike some others around here, I don't claim that my experience fully represents the Absolute Truth of God™

No, nor do you claim God's Word (as it is actually written) represents Absolute Truth, apparently.

 

[TomVols]

This thread is closed, pending further inquiry into rule violations by one or more posters. A warning was issued but not heeded.

Reprise the theme song and roll the credits.