How would you advise?

No one should ever HAVE to get married! Two wrongs do not make a right. Forcing someone to get married doesn't solve anything. It only compounds the problem. If they are just messing around, the attraction is only physical and doesn't involve true love.

It's God's job to convict people. It's our job to love them. Too many times we (myself included) want to help the Holy Spirit do his job instead of concentrating on our job: loving God and loving our neighbor as ourself.

 

I confess to you all that I am chief of sinners. Everyday I need God's grace, mercy, and His wonderful forgiveness.

Because what I said is true I can understand how someone could repent of a sin and through the course of time find themselves again committing sins.

IN ADDITION, because this is true the limit that Jesus gives us for forgiving others their sin against us (seventy times seven) is wonderful because I know that I can find forgiveness among God's people as well.

Because I have experienced forgiveness from God and He has set up guidelines for others to forgive me as well, HOW IN THE WORLD CAN I NOT FORGIVE SOMEONE ELSE!

This young woman has obviously been out sinning regardless of what her sin is, how is it ANY different from the sin in my life? It is not, it is ALL ugly to God, it ALL brought Jesus to the cross.

My thought is this, how could anyone who truly knows Jesus and His forgiveness, NOT forgive. IMHO, I don’t think they can. If one refuses to forgive someone their sin, I think it clearly shows they themselves have never felt God's forgiveness.

We can and should be hard on sin, BUT forgiveness has to be in there somewhere. Every time I have to correct my child for anything it always ends with me going to my son or daughter and saying I love you and giving tem a hug and letting them know that Daddy forgives as well as he corrects.

I know three things, there is a God, and kjvkid is not Him and neither am I!

:godisgood:

 

I have to agree. The people in churches today have to start taking sin much more seriously. Obviously this girl has a major problem, having two children out of wedlock.

There is fornication among you...1 Corinthians chapter 5

1 Corinthians 5:2 (KJV)
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

As for the preacher he is to have control over his household. How can he take care of the church if he can't rule his own house?

1 Timothy 3:4-5 (KJV)
4: One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5: (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

 

While the girl is 21 years old, she is still living at home. And as she is still living at home, her dad is responsible. If he cannot rule the home, he is not qualified to run the house of God.

Either the dad should send the girl to find a place to live, or, if he is not going to put her in another place, he should resign from the pulpit.

 

PLEASE folks - do not respond to personal attacks such as the one here. Simply report them so that we can deal with one post instead of many.

Use the "Report Bad Post" button, but please don't quote and respond.

Roger
C4K
Moderator

 

Sorry, will do better next time. You all do a good job!

 

I agree that the father should find a place for her to live if she continues to choose to live contrary to biblical atmosphere her family seeks to maintain. She is an adult. However I fail to see how the dad is guilty of not ruling his house well if he did everything in his ability to bring her up according to the Word of God.

The fact is that some times kids chose to not follow the ways of good parents and raised them right and this is not the fault of the parents.

 

Since the context there is elders I assume you are talking about "sin" of the pastor and that there are 2-3 witnesses to support your assertion?

If this had been the first pregnancy for the daughter, as an adult, I would question whether or not the pastor has failed to "rule his own house well." However, since this is the second pregnancy I think he would do well to consider his position.

All this, of course, based on the little we know about the heart wrenching situation.

 

Daughter, you are an adult and it's time to find your own way. I love you and I certainly love my grandchildren. As long as you choose to live this way, I cannot support you. Now, if you cannot take care of your children, I will gladly take full custody of them until you can provide for them. My grandchildren can't help the choices that you make. But, you can and my prayer is that you will choose, with God's help, to do the right thing. I'll be here with open arms when you demonstrate that you are truly repentant and are practicing a lifestyle that reflects Christ. But, until then you have two weeks to find another place to live.

 

Scripture says otherwise.

1 Timothy 3:4-5 (KJV)
4: One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5: (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

 

If the pastor did all he could and raised his children according to the word of God, he did rule his house well. The decisions of his adult children do not change that. I suppose the case could be made that the daughter was still at home and therefore part of the "house" but still. What if the father was working with his daughter and discipling her, and in a moment of temptation she falls into sin? I don´t think he is at fault and must step down from the ministry especially if his example of parenting had been good.

The point of 1Tim. 3-4 is direct toward all that a pastor has in his home. (And this is not limited to his wife and children). This would hint then at younger children still in the care of their parents.

IMO at age 21 the girl is for all intents and purpose on her own though she may live in mom and dads house.

 

According to the scriptures if he did rule over his children in subjection with all gravity, she would have turned out better. If he can't control his own children then he's not fit to take care of the church of God.

If she turned rebellious it would have been better to remove her.

She is a prodigal.

 

On what authority can we say she would turn out better if she was raised correctly? A child eventually will make their own choices that are beyond our control. Yes it is generally true that proper rearing will produce good children, but their are cases- and I know of some personally, where the parents did do everything according the the Bible but at least one of their children rejected all that they had been taught as a child.

I agree that if a pastor can not control his own children he is not fit to rule the house of God, but when the children are grown they are no longer "in his house" and if he did what was expected of him that his is not disqualified to pastor.

Perhaps it would have been better to remove the girl, but we don´t know. This is a case by case basis. She could have been perfectly submissive to her parents but in a moment of weakness given into sin.

I will leave this conversation with this. We (me included) are way to quick to judge most of the time. As soon as we hear of a pastor who has trouble in his own family we say: "see he is not fit to be a pastor". The fact of the matter is that none of us are fit to serve God but He chooses to use the worst of us. True we can not ignore the fact that there are requirements to be a pastor. But we must be extremely cautious in bringing an accusation against one including the charge of not ruling his house well because one adult child screwed up.

 

God's authority says so.

Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Ephesians 6:1-4 (KJV)
1: Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2: Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise; )
3: That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4: And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

reread Proverbs 22:6

It would have been better to remove her or anyone like her in any and every case.

1 Corinthians 5:7 (KJV)
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Everyone is tempted, even Jesus was.

Matthew 4:7-11 (KJV)
7: Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8: Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9: And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10: Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11: Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

When it comes to fornication it seems everyone wants to let everyone else off the hook. Sin isn't mourned like it should be, it's called a mistake when it's a choice.

Usually when a person becomes defensive and tries to make concessions for another person's sins they are usually guilty of the same sins. It's a losing effort to try to justify one's sins through another.

 

Let me ask this of all those who say this pastor is "unfit".

Have your children EVER lied?

Have your children EVER been disrespectful?

Have your children EVER sinned?

Are your children overweight?

Then by your own words you have declared that you are unfit to be in the ministry.

I understand this young woman is pregnant again and is not married again. It is a heart breaking situation for all involved. But we seem to forget that sin is sin. There is no such thing as a big sin or a little sin. It is all ugly in the eyes of the Lord. And it all needs to be dealt with as the Lord dealt with sin.

I will be first to tell you I have been blessed with GREAT kids. I have a 15 year old daughter and a 10 year old son. There are none better, but they are far from perfect.

Just yesterday my daughter told me she did not care who won the super bowl! You can only imagine my grief. I am a Giants fan and I have tried to raise my kids right, but somewhere somehow my daughter turned into a girly girl that cares more about what color her toe nails are than football. I have hopes that by sunday she will repent!

Bottom line is this. Yes this girl is a sinner and yes this girl needs to repent and turn from willfully living a disobediant life. But her sin is not greater or lesser than your sin or mine or our childrens.

Once again this board has proven how blessed we are that are forgivness is from God and not from man. For God is more willing to forgive.

:jesus:

 

Scribe are you perfect?

Then will you remove yourself from your position?

 

Not one of us is perfect, Chuck. But Scripture clearly states that the one who takes that position behind the pulpit

1 Timothy 3:4-5 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)


It is clear... the man taking that position must have his children under subjection. For a man to have an unwed child with two children out of wedlock, that is not keeping that child under subjection.

And clearly if he cannot rule his own house, his ability to rule the house of God should be in question.

 

I know I said I was done.

I see now Scribe why you stand where you do. you quote:

Great verse, however. We need to understand that the proverbs are exactly that.- they are proverbs, which are short pithy statements that are generally true. Any conservative Bible scholar will tell you that.

This does not mean that we ignore Proverbs because it is inspired by God and is a treasure trove of truth. But it does mean that we do not take the proverbs as being always cut and dry this way. In fact their are Proverbs that would seem to contradict one an other for this very reason.

Nobody here is making concessions for this girls sin. We have all recognized as that. What chuck said above is good and was the point I was trying to make. We are so quick to judge others when we are so guilty ourselves. If it were not for the grace of God how we would be condemned so quickly.

Ok, now I am done for real this time... got a mountain of other things to do. Thanks for the dialogue it was good. I do appreciate your apparent disdain for sin Scribe. Many Christians do not take it seriously as you have said. Its good to be reminded of that. Just remember that God is loving and gracious and restores sinners to Himself as well.

 

This girl is rebellious. She has dishonored and shamed her parents.

1 Samuel 15:23 (KJV)
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

We could go this far...
Exodus 22:18 (KJV)
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. :saint:

That's good. It's better to raise a young lady than a tomboy.

Reread 1 Samuel 15:23.

Willfully sinning by an adult is much worse than a young child disobeying not yet knowing what sin is. The fact is she is twenty-two and has had two children out-of wedlock. She knew better and knew the scriptures on fornication and did not heed their words.

We don't have to stick up for her. She has to make her choice either to repent and change her ways, or leave. You can't be luke warm.