RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
That’s assuming all Christians are well-informed on the matter. But many are not.
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How would you answer these statements:
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
I suggest you read up on the very recent history of conservative Christianity and abortion. In conservative Christian circles, views on abortion have changed radically within my lifetime. Please review this history of the shift (and please, "do you own research" and verify the reality of the claims):
The ‘biblical view’ that’s younger than the Happy Meal
A couple of things:
(1) I usually don't engage with pro-choice Christians while they are in the process of getting an abortion ("watching the murders take place"). I have never been invited to an abortion procedure. Is that an invitation you regularly receive?
(2) Your analogy assumes that pro-choice Christians are the ones having the majority of abortions. Having been in church settings for a long time and knowing what goes on behind the scenes, a lot of abortions are had by women who are anti-abortion, but they find themselves in bad circumstances and rationalize that Jesus will forgive them ("once saved, always saved") because they are not a bad person overall. One of my closest friends growing up was raped as a college age woman. She because pregnant because of the rape. She, like me, was opposed to abortion and did the courageous thing of carrying the baby to term and raising the boy in a loving home with the assistance of her Christian parents. However, the "pro-life" gossipers at church constantly sniped at her for her "immorality" for being pregnant and unmarried, even though I happened to know at least two of them had had quiet abortions when they got pregnant from promiscuous sex in their teenage years. The hypocrisy and stupidity of their sniping ("It probably wasn't rape, since the boy looks a lot like her...") was maddening and made me think a lot more carefully about the issue of abortion and the way the "pro-life" movement goes about it's mission. As such, I have no patience for cruelty or shaming of unmarried women who are pregnant and have children without a father present, since a "pro-life" persons would understand that it would be counter-productive.
(3) One of my great frustrations with the so-called "pro-life" movement is that it is not really pro-life -- it is anti-abortion. To be pro-life, one has to engage the whole realm of conditions that have made abortion an appealing alternative for many thousands of years. To do so requires changing the attitudes of the culture by words and actions. Since people have been performing abortions for millennia across many cultures without government prohibition or regulation (most of the time). Even in colonial America, abortion was widely used -- Benjamin Franklin famously published instructions on abortifacients. Of course, the modern pro-life movement pretends those facts don't exist since it doesn't serve their narrative focusing on power - passing laws and vilifying those with differing viewpoints.
(4) Culture war Christianity(sic) that focuses on the use of the power of the government fails every time and undermines real Christianity (faith based on the teachings and example of Jesus and the early church) because it ignores the power of moral example and the power of the Spirit to change lives. The early church virtually eliminated infanticide starting in the 1st century because of the influence of Christians seeking our abandoned infants and giving them homes. Through their moral example and vocal advocacy for the value of children transformed the cultures where they lived.
(5) The process of talking with someone through the question of abortion is similar to talking with a cult member or an unbeliever about Jesus. Frankly, it is simply a time-tested way of changing hearts and minds even outside of the moral and religious realm. Instead of attacking the other people for being where they are, find common points of agreement and move from there to the areas where you have disagreement and rationally sort through the issues. I've helped Mormons out of Mormonism, self-styled satanists out of their destruction, and many others out of moral and religious positions I believe are in serious error. Of course, this takes time and humility. Plus you don't get to "destroy" or "own" the other person, but that's an antichrist attitude anyway.
I will accept that as a sincere sentiment.
Be careful. Jesus said, "...But I tell you that for every careless word that people speak, they will give an account of it on the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” - Matthew 12:36-37
There's not a shortage of those. Baptistboard is full of professing Christians giving the enemies of God great occasion to blaspheme His name. The Politics section is among the worst examples of antichrist sentiment and dishonesty.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
BB, you are playing word games now. I made the ANALOGY of people ignoring the murder of millions while trying not to offend the killers.
Your approach is valid. I sincerely hope it works. So is mine. Professing Christians support for abortion is a horror!!! Comparing it to political opinions is disgraceful.
We support a ministry that offers prenatal care and post birth services to mothers and fathers considering abortion. In just a few years, this ministry has convinced several dozen women to keep their babies.
BTW, Jesus’s advice concerning “careless words” apply to everyone.
peace to you
Your approach is valid. I sincerely hope it works. So is mine. Professing Christians support for abortion is a horror!!! Comparing it to political opinions is disgraceful.
We support a ministry that offers prenatal care and post birth services to mothers and fathers considering abortion. In just a few years, this ministry has convinced several dozen women to keep their babies.
BTW, Jesus’s advice concerning “careless words” apply to everyone.
peace to you
Absolutely correct!
I am pro-choice - which means the baby gets to choose if he wants to be aborted
A person who accepts abortion is PRO-ABORTION!
Not playing word games. You analogy is terrible and doesn't apply, since the motivation behind not shutting down conversations before they start has nothing to do with offending people. It is about being effective and following the example of people like Jesus and the apostle Paul.
It is very effective.
That's good.
Absolutely. That's why it is extremely important to think very carefully about the way we communicate. We are judged according to our intentions and our knowledge.
That's a logical fallacy.
There are many people who don't like abortion (they are NOT pro-abortion) but don't believe it is the government's job to regulate it. They are pro-choice for the mother in terms of birth control and abortion.
For instance, many Libertarians famously opposed regulations on currently illegal drugs. That does not make them "pro-drug," it makes them "pro-choice" in terms of the choice to use drugs or not..
A person may not own a weapon - but if he supports the 2nd amendment- he is pro-gun.
If a person does not use drugs but wants to see more liberal laws - then he is pro drug.
as far as abortion -
why is a person afraid to call himself "pro-abortion?"
because it does not sound nice.
If you support someones so called right to an abortion- then you are pro-abortion!
and I stand firm on this!
You stated "hat's why it is extremely important to think very carefully about the way we communicate. We are judged according to our intentions and our knowledge."
And that is the reason - why I explain my self so others will fully understand the point I am trying to make.
Same thing - when people use the term "Gay" I think it is good when someone is happy!
If a person does not use drugs but wants to see more liberal laws - then he is pro drug.
as far as abortion -
why is a person afraid to call himself "pro-abortion?"
because it does not sound nice.
If you support someones so called right to an abortion- then you are pro-abortion!
and I stand firm on this!
You stated "hat's why it is extremely important to think very carefully about the way we communicate. We are judged according to our intentions and our knowledge."
And that is the reason - why I explain my self so others will fully understand the point I am trying to make.
Same thing - when people use the term "Gay" I think it is good when someone is happy!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Jesus….
Routinely referred to religious leaders as “brood of vipers”, “whitewashed tombs” “their father is Satan” “a perverse generation” “murderers of the prophets”.
Hummm, which of us is following the example of Jesus?
peace to you
1st paragraph: I'll take your word for pre-1970s mainstream view, though I did not have that view even before God saved me in 1970 - at age 24. Use of the description of God giving life to the first man, a one-of-a-kind action, as an argument in today's abortion discussion seems a very wide stretch to me. (And from a[n intended] humorous-not-serious note, context suggests that the man was of adult stature at the time of that life-giving breath, thus terminating offspring would be acceptable until perhaps 18 years old. I'm sure there are some overstressed parents who might buy into that view.)
2nd paragraph: That is accurate and might apply to a woman who took certain prescribed drugs that terminated a pregnancy before she had any way of knowing of it. The proportion of woman getting abortions without intent and knowledge is, if not zero, a number that looks very similar to zero.