Human Nature versus Sinful nature

[Pastor David]

HP: A whole lot more according to at least one on this list, that claims he sins every day in thought word and deed.

If the least that can be said of a new man in Christ, i.e., sin has became the abnormality in ones life as opposed to the normal way of life as a sinner, what earthly good is the new man?

This total divorce between what one is said to positionally in Christ and the common lifestyles they live daily, is a complete disconnect between the life of believers as described in Scripture and supported by reason. If ones daily life is not clearly in keeping with ones faith, their faith is not placed in the object of true faith, Jesus Christ, and love towards God and obedience to his commands.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

There is not a 'complete disconnect' between what a Christian is positionally in Christ, and what a Christian is conditionally in his life. We are exhorted to progress in our sanctification, to work out our salvation. My contention would be the Christian is perfected postionally in Christ the moment they are converted, and yet we are given the responsibility to 'put off' the old man and 'put on' the new man thus conditionally not realizing absolute perfection. One of my popular exhortations to Christians is to tell them to die daily to sin and self, and live everyday and in every way in the holiness of the Lord.

 

[The Biblicist]

There is not a 'complete disconnect' between what a Christian is positionally in Christ, and what a Christian is conditionally in his life. We are exhorted to progress in our sanctification, to work out our salvation. My contention would be the Christian is perfected postionally in Christ the moment they are converted, and yet we are given the responsibility to 'put off' the old man and 'put on' the new man thus conditionally not realizing absolute perfection. One of my popular exhortations to Christians is to tell them to die daily to sin and self, and live everyday and in every way in the holiness of the Lord.

Pastor David, you have hit the nail squarely upon the head!

There is no such thing as a justified Christian who is not also a regenerated Christian. The former has to do with our PERFECT POSITION in Christ in heaven (seated in Christ in heavenly places) because Christ cannot be less than perfect. The latter has to do with our own condition on earth.

Justification is by IMPUTATON and it is the sinless life of Christ that is IMPUTED to "the ungodly" believer (Rom. 4:5) before God touching the Law.

Regeneration is the IMPARTED righteousness of Christ in the creation of our new inward man. This new creation loves righteousness and hates unrighteousness and is always willing to do what is right but has no power to enforce its willingness (Rom. 7:15-25) except by the power of the Indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:9-13) whereby we daily moritfy the deeds of the flesh and progressively grow in Christ according to the measure of God's grace and mercy in keeping with God's purpose of grace (Eph. 2:10a; Rom. 12:4,7) respectfully for each individual child of God.

Each of us has gifts, a course to pursue and we progress in that course as we walk in the Spirit by his grace being transformed from glory to glory by the Spirit of the Lord until one day we are perfected in glorification.

 

[billwald]

>My contention would be the Christian is perfected postionally in Christ the moment they are converted,

Not when they are regenerated?

And how does this thread relate to the doctrine of election?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you regard the Apostle Paul a sufficiently qualified Greek expert?

Rom. 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I think this one text answers every objection you have given in this post.

No it does not. the Lord Jesus was speaking about the "law of sin" and not "sin" itself! Obviously you cannot tell the difference!

Those are two entirely different things but you must make them the same thing in order to answer my question:

Please quote a Greek expert who defines the Greek word translated "sin" as something that "wars against the soul."

 

[The Biblicist]

No it does not. the Lord Jesus was speaking about the "law of sin" and not "sin" itself! Obviously you cannot tell the difference!

Those are two entirely different things but you must make them the same thing in order to answer my question:

Please quote a Greek expert who defines the Greek word translated "sin" as something that "wars against the soul."

My Greek expert did just fine. You simply failed to understand him!

The term "law" is used by Paul in this context to characterize the attributes and manner of how sin operates. For example, like the "law" of gravity is the attributes and manner how gravity operates. So the term "law" refers to the comphrensive nature of sin at work in the body!

Now, read the text again with that definition in view:

"But I see another STANDARD OF ATTRIBUTES AT WORK in my members, warring against the STANDARD OF ATTRIBUTES AT WORK my mind, bringing me into captivity to the STANDARD OF SINS ATTRIBUTES AT WORK in my members."

The term "law" refers to the comprehensive operative nature of sin at work in the lost man.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

My Greek expert did just fine. You simply failed to understand him!

The term "law" is used by Paul in this context to characterize the attributes and manner of how sin operates.

Yes, the "law of sin" speaks of the way that sin operates. But that "law" is not the same thing as a "sin."

For example, like the "law" of gravity is the attributes and manner how gravity operates. So the term "law" refers to the comphrensive nature of sin at work in the body!

Yes, but the "law of gravity" is not the same thing as "gravity" itself.

The term "law" refers to the comprehensive operative nature of sin at work in the lost man.

Yes, it refers to how sin operates but that operation is not the same thing as a "sin."

You prove over and over that you lack the ability to "reason out of the Scriptures."

You think that "sin" is the same thing as the "law of sin."

"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" (Ro.10:2).

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, the "law of sin" speaks of the way that sin operates. But that "law" is not the same thing as a "sin."

The immediate context is not speaking of something theoretical but something personal and practical.

The "law of sin" is INCLUSIVE of "a" sin and "ALL" sin because there is no personal or practical law at work in Paul apart from the presence of sin in his person, as the law is how sin itself works in a person, rather than how some abstract law works in a person!

Hence, "the law of sin" is SIN at work according to its attributes. Hence it is sin at war with his mind!

We can talk about sin and gravity theoretically and separate them from the law but we cannot do so PRACTICALLY as gravity must be INCLUSIVE if it is at work in the universe and so sin must be INCLUSIVE if it is at work in Paul as Paul demands in this context.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The immediate context is not speaking of something theoretical but something personal and practical.

That does not mean that the "law of sin" is the same thing as "sin" itself.

But this is all above your reasoning for some reason.

The "law of sin" is INCLUSIVE of "a" sin and "ALL" sin because there is no personal or practical law at work in Paul apart from the presence of sin in his person, as the law is how sin itself works in a person, rather than how some abstract law works in a person!

the "law of sin" is one thing and "sin" is an entirely different thing.

We can talk about sin and gravity theoretically and separate them from the law but we cannot do so PRACTICALLY as gravity must be INCLUSIVE if it is at work in the universe and so sin must be INCLUSIVE if it is at work in Paul as Paul demands in this context.

That makes no sense and it does not prove that the "law of sin' is the same thing as a "sin."

You are hopeless because you are able to trick your mind into believing the most ridiculous ideas.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (2 Thess.2:11).

 

[The Biblicist]

That does not mean that the "law of sin" is the same thing as "sin" itself.

Theoretically you are correct! However, practically speaking you are not correct and Paul is using it in a context of practical application not merely theory.

In the classroom we can dissect gravity from what it is in nature in regard to practice! However, in nature it cannot be done! So likewise, the law of sin cannot be separated from sin in the practical context Paul places it in Romans 7.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So likewise, the law of sin cannot be separated from sin in the practical context Paul places it in Romans 7.

Of course the "law of sin" cannot be separated from sin in anyway.

But that does not mean that the "law of sin" is the same thing as "sin" itself.

You have being playing mental gymnastics with the Scriptures for so long that you no longer have the ability to "reason," much less "reason out of the Scriptures."

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course the "law of sin" cannot be separated from sin in anyway.

But that does not mean that the "law of sin" is the same thing as "sin" itself.

You have being playing mental gymnastics with the Scriptures for so long that you no longer have the ability to "reason," much less "reason out of the Scriptures."

I simply said that sin wars against the soul. I produced a text that you must admit means that as you confess that sin cannot be separated in any PRACTICAL application from the "law of sin"!

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

This is not a THEORETICAL context but a PRACTICAL context and in PRACTICE you can no more divorce sin from the law of sin than you can gravity from the law of gravity!

Therefore, you are the one guilty of mental gynastics because in a PRACTICAL PERSONAL context "the law of sin" = sin and cannot possibly be divorced from each other.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Therefore, you are the one guilty of mental gynastics because in a PRACTICAL PERSONAL context "the law of sin" = sin and cannot possibly be divorced from each other.

The term "law of sin" is not the same thing as "sin". They are related of course but they are not the same thing, as you imagine!

Of course you will never admit that you are mistaken ablout anything in theology so you continue to argue that the "law of sin" is the same things as "sin."

I am grateful that you continue to insist that they are one and the same because others can see that when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures your opinion cannot be trusted.

 

[The Biblicist]

The term "law of sin" is not the same thing as "sin". They are related of course but they are not the same thing, as you imagine!

Of course you will never admit that you are mistaken ablout anything in theology so you continue to argue that the "law of sin" is the same things as "sin."

I am grateful that you continue to insist that they are one and the same because others can see that when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures your opinion cannot be trusted.

Did you read what I said? I said you were correct if we view it THEORETICALLY!

THEORECTICALLY gravity can be distinguished from the law of gravity.

THEORECTICALLY sin can be distinguished from the law of sin.

However, Paul is NOT dealing with the "law of sin" THEORETICALLY but in reality and in practice in his own person. Hence, the law of sin at work in his own person cannot be separated from sin because it is sin at work as defined by that law!

Therefore he is describing SIN at WAR with his mind and the WAR that SIN is waging against his mind is according to "the law" of sin or HOW SIN OPERATES! Sin is operational within Paul and its base for operation is found "in the flesh" or "in my members" or in "my body."

 

[The Biblicist]

Did you read what I said? I said you were correct if we view it THEORETICALLY!

THEORECTICALLY gravity can be distinguished from the law of gravity.

THEORECTICALLY sin can be distinguished from the law of sin.

However, Paul is NOT dealing with the "law of sin" THEORETICALLY but in reality and in practice in his own person. Hence, the law of sin at work in his own person cannot be separated from sin because it is sin at work as defined by that law!

Therefore he is describing SIN at WAR with his mind and the WAR that SIN is waging against his mind is according to "the law" of sin or HOW SIN OPERATES! Sin is operational within Paul and its base for operation is found "in the flesh" or "in my members" or in "my body."

We sin because we are sinners by nature as sin is a LAW at work in our nature and that LAW was received at the fall and passed down through birth and the law of death is simply the consequence of the law of sin at work in our flesh.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor David: There is not a 'complete disconnect' between what a Christian is positionally in Christ, and what a Christian is conditionally in his life.

HP Then do you believe that if a believer sins and continues in that sin unrepented of until the judgment, that such a one still will make heaven their home? If so you have a clear disconnect between positional salvation and the Christian walk.

Pastor David: We are exhorted to progress in our sanctification, to work out our salvation. My contention would be the Christian is perfected postionally in Christ the moment they are converted, and yet we are given the responsibility to 'put off' the old man and 'put on' the new man thus conditionally not realizing absolute perfection

.

HP: Same thing I said above applies to this remark as well.

Pastor David: One of my popular exhortations to Christians is to tell them to die daily to sin and self, and live everyday and in every way in the holiness of the Lord.

HP: Sounds real good on the surface, but if you also tell them OSAS and that your works have no bearing on their eternal standing before God, in effect you are giving them a license to sin with impunity. A holy walk is not an option that we can or cannot do, but is a condition of our final standing before God, without which we have no solid hope that can be the solid foundation of our assurance by faith that we will be found in Him in the last day.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Note that the very means by which we can be assured that we are not simply self deceived is via knowledge that indeed we are keeping Gods commandments. It matters not what one believes is true. Deception is a real possibility for anyone. Apart from a clear conscience before God and man, one is in real danger of self deception, believing themselves to be something they are in reality not.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP Then do you believe that if a believer sins and continues in that sin unrepented of until the judgment, that such a one still will make heaven their home? If so you have a clear disconnect between positional salvation and the Christian walk.

The Bible distinguishes between mere professed believers (tares) and truly born again people. Those who eventually deny Christ were never truly born again people (1 Jn. 2:19; Mt. 13). Those false professors who do not deny Christ only judgement will reveal them (Mt. 7:21-23; Mt. 13).

No true child of God can get away with unrepentant sin. However, where we disgree is the consequences. Church discipline is one consequence. Chastening by God is another consquence (Heb. 12:5-10). There are many other consequences (loss of joy, fellowship, usefulness, etc.). The ultimate consequence is an untimely physical death. However not the loss of the soul (1 Cor. 3:14-15; Heb. 10:39).

The lost man is incapable of being or doing righteousness in the sight of God (Rom. 3:10-11; Mt. 19:17). The saved man is righteous positionally and regenerationally in spirit but his outward life is not always consistent with his position or inward man (Gal. 5:16-25; Rom. 8:11-12).

HP: Sounds real good on the surface, but if you also tell them OSAS and that your works have no bearing on their eternal standing before God, in effect you are giving them a license to sin with impunity.

The true child of God sins more than he wants to and is always mindful of his sinfulness and willingly professes "I AM thecheif of sinners." The closer one gets to God the more sinful they see themselves in the light of God's perfection. Hence, OSAS does not lead true believers to sin but the very opposite, it promotes love manifested by good works. However, OSAS does promote false professors not only to sin but to be boastful in their sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sin is operational within Paul and its base for operation is found "in the flesh" or "in my members" or in "my body."

You couldn't recognize figurative language if it hit you right between the eyes.

According to you sin (which is not either a physical or spiritual substance) is operational within Paul and its base for operation is found in the "flesh."

However, when Paul speaks of the "flesh" in terms of being sinful, he is NOT referring to "literal" flesh, as evidenced by what he said Here:

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Ro.8:9).

From this we can understand that when Paul used the word "flesh" in the sense of sin, he was not making reference to actual "flesh" (as in "flesh and blood" bodies). That is because the only way that we could no longer be 'in the flesh" would be by no longer being in the physical body!

But I am sure that you will continue to insist that when Paul speaks of these things what he says can only be understood in a "literal" sense. As I said, you couldn't recognize figurative language if it hit you right between the eyes.

 

[The Biblicist]

You couldn't recognize figurative language if it hit you right between the eyes.

Indwelling sin is a spiritual reality that operates in and with the literal physical body. The body is where your five senses are located that give the world access to your soul. Sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste. These five senses give the world access to your heart.

In addition to these five senses found in your phyiscal body are the natural drives (sex and hunger, comfort) none of which are sinful in and of themselves but provide fodder for the wicked heart.

In lost people indwelling sin is located in the spirit of man and works from the inside to the outside. When a person is born again, indwelling sin is booted out of its dwelling place in the immaterial part of man and takes up its dwelling place in the physical nature of man (Rom. 7:14-25). It's presence and power is manifested in the "law" at work in your physical body - the law of death. Indwelling sin is the spiritual reality that is manifested by death at work in your body. Indwelling sin wars against the soul of the born again man by using the natural drives and senses located in the physical body to tempt man in connection without outward temptations. Hence, the senses become doors for temptation to attack the soul. Hence, the natural drives under the perversion of indwelling sin become inward temptations joined with the five senses to attack the soul of the saved man.

This is what is meant by the terms "the flesh" as it incoporates the physical human body with its five senses and natural drives (sex, hunger, comfort) under the reign of indwelling sin whereby death is operational in the body and is the base of operation to war against the soul of man.

When the saved man sets his affections on things beneath he allows indwelling sin control of his soul which in turn allows control of his attitudes and actions bringing upon him temporal consequences or EXPERIENTIAL DEATH.

When the saved man sets his affections on things above and yeilds to the power of the Holy Spirit he mortifies the deeds of "the flesh" or puts to death the power of indwelling sin over his soul and thus over his attitudes and actions.

This is the battle of the Christian life and his daily victory and spiritual growth depends upon his understanding of the operation of indwelling sin in regard to his body and the way to defeat it by the indwelling Spirit of God in regard to his spirit. The saved man is no longer "in" the flesh but he can choose to walk "after" the flesh and exerpience death (separation from God) in his daily life or he can live the abundant life by learning how to moritfy the flesh through the indwelling Spirit of God.

You mock at this truth at your own spiritual peril.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Indwelling sin is a spiritual reality that operates in and with the literal physical body.

Please give me one definition of the Greek word translated "sin" by a Greek expert where it is defined as anything that can indwell a person in any form.

In the Bible sin is defined as "lawlessness":

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness" (1 Jn.3:4).

How can "lawlessness" indwell anyone?

You failed to address anything which I said here:

According to you sin (which is not either a physical or spiritual substance) is operational within Paul and its base for operation is found in the "flesh."

However, when Paul speaks of the "flesh" in terms of being sinful, he is NOT referring to "literal" flesh, as evidenced by what he said Here:

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Ro.8:9).

From this we can understand that when Paul used the word "flesh" in the sense of sin, he was not making reference to actual "flesh" (as in "flesh and blood" bodies). That is because the only way that we could no longer be 'in the flesh" would be by no longer being in the physical body!

But I am sure that you will continue to insist that when Paul speaks of these things what he says can only be understood in a "literal" sense. As I said, you couldn't recognize figurative language if it hit you right between the eyes.

 

[The Biblicist]

Please give me one definition of the Greek word translated "sin" by a Greek expert where it is defined as anything that can indwell a person in any form.

You are completely ignoring my last post. You are just going in a circle!

I have provided you with the Biblical language in Romans 7:17,18,20 that clearly and explicitly says "sin dwells in my flesh..members...body"

I have clearly defined the "law of sin" as something spiritual not material.

I have clearly defined the "law of sin" to be sin at work, or sin working death in the human body and attempting to work experiential death (separation between the soul and indwelling Spirit);

In the Bible sin is defined as "lawlessness":

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness" (1 Jn.3:4).

How can "lawlessness" indwell anyone?

Have you ever heard of "the spirit of lawlessness"? Indwelling sin is a spirit of lawlessness.

You failed to address anything which I said here:

According to you sin (which is not either a physical or spiritual substance) is operational within Paul and its base for operation is found in the "flesh."

Wrong, I stated it is spiritual substance that is working death in the body and therefore is the "law of sin" and thus the "law of death" at work in your physical anatomy.

However, when Paul speaks of the "flesh" in terms of being sinful, he is NOT referring to "literal" flesh, as evidenced by what he said Here:

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).

Paul makes a distinction between being "in" the flesh versus "walking AFTER" the flesh. However, both have to do with the literal flesh.

Being "in the flesh" describes the natural unregenerated man without the indwelling Holy Spirit whose life is characterized from the inside out by seeking to satisfy those cravings associated with the physical body (sex, food, comfort, etc.).

Walking "after the flesh" describes any point in time when either a lost or saved man seeks to satisfy those same cravings or attempts to live for God in his own will power and strength instead of the power of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 7:15-25).

Being "in the Spirit" describes the regenerated man wherein the Holy Spirit dwells in union with immaterial spirit of man so that the spirit of man is renewed in the image of God in true holiness and rightouesness inclining the will to delight in the Law of God and seek to fulfill it in his life. To "walk" after the Spirit is when a regenerated child of God submits to the power of the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life.


So, in both cases, being "in the flesh" and "walking after the flesh" is inclusive of the literal physical body and its cravings and five senses that indwelling sin controls and/or uses to destroy your life.