I have explained this several times now. First, it is speaking of especially wicked men, and not all men. This is shown in following verses.
Remember the context--the context of your post:
I take all Scripture literally.
Secondly, the context of verse three is infants, not wicked men. Are infants wicked men? No. You were just as wicked when you were born, as the virgin Mary was, and as these infants here referred to were. When we are born, we are all on the same playing field--equal. There is no partiality with God.
The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
David is not saying all men are wicked in verse 3, he is clearly distinguishing between wicked men and righteous men. So, you cannot apply verse 3 to all men as David himself is making a distinction.
I am not speaking of wicked men whatsoever. You are. I am referring to "they are estranged from the womb as soon as they be born speaking lies."
Who is? Infants are? Whose infants? All infants. It doesn't matter what family you come from? Do you really believe that you were born a Christian into this world and never had to be born again?
It does not say the wicked were estranged IN the womb, it says they are estranged FROM the womb. That means they are estranged sometime AFTER being physically born. It also directly says the wicked GO ASTRAY as soon as they be BORN, again showing they go astray AFTER leaving their mother's womb. It does not say how long after, although it does strongly imply they are estranged and go astray very soon in life.
Point taken. I never said "in the womb." But the expression "as soon as they be born" gives a sense of immediacy, as in right after birth.
Now, this is easily observed by all. We see folks who decide upon a life of crime at a very early age. Men who are career criminals usually start in their early teens, or even a few years earlier.
That is what you would like the verse to say, but it doesn't. As soon as they be born they go astray speaking lies. Why? They have a sin nature. Why do they speak lies and not the truth? Because they are sinners. Sinners sin. Thieves steal. Adulterers commit adultery. Liars lie, and sinners sin. They sin because they are born sinners. They are born with a sin nature.
That is all this verse is saying, although it is hyperbole or exaggeration. Likewise, most people who get saved (the righteous) receive Jesus at a very early age. It is a statistical fact that the vast majority of Christians received Christ before they were 13 years old. After that age, the probability of receiving Christ as Saviour goes down significantly.
And so....another red herring?
They are still born with a sin nature, whether in a "Christian family" or pagan family.
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Note that God did not say the imaginations of man's heart is evil from conception, he said "from his youth". Now, there is no exact specific age mentioned here, but the word youth usually means a young man, a teenager.
And so...
You are ignoring context. Commentary after commentary say virtually the same thing. I would use John Gill. You ought to read his remarks on Gen.8:21. They refer right back to Psalm 58:3. But instead I will quote Matthew Poole:
For the imagination of man's heart is evil. The reason contained in these words is this: Since all men's hearts are naturally corrupt, and from that filthy spring wicked actions will be continually flowing forth into the world; and consequently, if I should be severe to punish men according to their sins, I should do nothing but send one deluge after another. Or these words may be joined with the former, and the sense may be this: I will not again destroy the earth with a deluge.
The context refers to the sin nature of the "youth" being inherited from one generation and passed on to the next, and then the next, etc. Thus the reason for the Flood. It would never correct itself. It could not be corrected because of the inherited sinfulness of mankind. Your verse is a proof for the depravity of mankind.
As you can see here, he defined it as ADOLESCENCE. This is not a newborn.
Passed on from one generation to the other, not being able to be corrected, getting worse and worse, and the only way to stop it was by a Flood or total destruction. It is a good argument for the depravity of man.
What you fail to admit, although I think you know this quite well, it that the Psalms often use exaggeration or hyperbole to emphasize a truth, and that is what Psa 58:3 is doing.
That is not in question here. I challenged you in your former post:
Will you take literally this verse: Psalm 58:3?
You said I take all the Bible literally. And you also said yes to this verse. Now you are backing down and saying that you can't take it literally.
If you take verse 3 as literal, then you must take the following verses as literal;
No, that is not necessarily the case. However that is your problem not mine, since you said you would take it literally, not me. Check your former post.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
The verse speaks a truth. The truth is the inherent sin nature of mankind. It starts with infancy. They are evil as soon as they are born.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
These scriptures are not talking of infants, but rather poetic justice of the wicked. That is different isn't it? In the OT the writer often didn't differentiate between the offspring of the wicked and the wicked themselves no matter what the age. But in this day and age we have more light, more revelation. We become more responsible for the light we are given. We are able to make more informed decisions with a completed canon.
#1 David is speaking of the wicked only, as he distinguishes them from "the righteous" in verses 10 and 11 which I have already shown.
#2 He says they are estranged FROM the womb, that is, AFTER they are born.
#3 He says they GO ASTRAY as soon as they be BORN, again showing this occurs AFTER they are born and not in the womb.
Winman I will state my case here. You were as wicked as these ones that David described when you were born. When describing infants here, he is describing us all, no one excepted. There is a difference between the description of infants (whether they be born to righteous or unrighteous), and the description of the unrighteous. That is what you fail to differentiate.
#4 In verse 4 he says their poison is like the poison of a adder. If this is to be taken literally, then breastfeeding would be very dangerous indeed!
#5 In verse 6 he asks God to break their teeth, and compares their teeth to the teeth of young lions. Again, if this Psalm is to be taken literally, then these wicked men should be easy to identify, because they are born with a mouthful of huge teeth. Absurd to say the very least.
#6 In verse 7 and 8 David says let these wicked men melt away as snails. I have 8 children, and trust me, they did not melt like snails when they were born.
#7 In verse 8 David says, "let every one of them pass away". If David is speaking of all men as you say, and these verses are to be taken literally, then you would have to believe that David was praying to God for all children everywhere to perish.
And you have the gall to tell me I do not interpret the scriptures properly?
Yes, I do. You don't know the difference between an adult and an infant.
It is you that needs to do some study, and a little common sense wouldn't hurt either. It is obvious all of these verses are extreme exaggeration and should not be taken literally, and even more so should not be used to form doctrine.
Verses that apply to all infants are not exaggerated. We all are depraved from birth onward. It is not a difficult concept, and is clearly taught in Scripture.
