Human vs. Divine Side of Jesus

[Ascetic X]

Do you read about things related to Jesus and say “that was His human side” or “that was His divine side”?

Before the Word was incarnated, the Son of God never got hungry, thirsty, sleepy, or worried about anything.

So when the Word was born from Mary, He entered a whole new experience as a fleshly mortal human. Thus, He could also be tempted every way we are, including sexually and enticements to shun suffering and seek comfort and luxury.

Are the two natures of Jesus, human and divine, completely blended into one indivisible entity — or are they distinct and separate, but unified in purpose?

Did Jesus, who was the Word manifested in the flesh, have to study the Torah as He grew up from childhood to adult? When Jesus was 3 years old, did He know He was God manifested in the flesh? Or did this realization develop gradually as He studied scripture? Did Mary and Joseph help Him understand it?

God cannot get weary, but the human side of Jesus slept on the boat, then He was awakened by His disciples, and the divine side of Jesus took command of nature and rebuked the storm.

When in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus sweated what looked like great drops of blood, and asked God the Father to let the cup of crucifixion pass from Him, but also said He would submit to whatever was the Father’s will. Divinity cannot fear or dread. Was that anxiety about crucifixion a manifestation of the human side of Jesus?

 

[Ben1445]

Jesus childhood is something that I will always think about. There is very little given directly.
I don’t think that Joseph and Mary were training Him to be Messiah. They wouldn’t have the proper skills to teach the Lord what He needed. I have it in my mind that Jesus physical body developed the same way as everyone else’s. A bit of muscular development with the exercise and use of them. Neurological development with use and training, just the same as everyone else.
But training and bringing up in behavior I think was completely under the care of His Father.
When Jesus asked Mary and Joseph if they really didn’t understand that He must be about His Father’s business, it is an indication that they were not the ones thinking through what Jesus would be doing.

 

[Ascetic X]

Jesus childhood is something that I will always think about. There is very little given directly.
I don’t think that Joseph and Mary were training Him to be Messiah. They wouldn’t have the proper skills to teach the Lord what He needed. I have it in my mind that Jesus physical body developed the same way as everyone else’s. A bit of muscular development with the exercise and use of them. Neurological development with use and training, just the same as everyone else.
But training and bringing up in behavior I think was completely under the care of His Father.
When Jesus asked Mary and Joseph if they really didn’t understand that He must be about His Father’s business, it is an indication that they were not the ones thinking through what Jesus would be doing.

The possibility of Mary and Joseph teaching the Torah and Tehillim (Psalms) to the child Jesus hinges upon when the divine side of Jesus was obvious to Him. Age 3? Age 6? Age 12?

Did Jesus discover His divinity by direct revelation by the Holy Spirit? Or when the young Jesus was reading the Torah or Tehillim, did He at some point say, “Hey! That is talking about Me!”? Or could that have happened when He heard the scriptures at temple? This is a mysterious aspect of Jesus.

 

[kyredneck]

When in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus sweated what looked like great drops of blood, and asked God the Father to let the cup of crucifixion pass from Him

7​	Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 7

He was NOT trying to circumvent the cross, He was asking to be delivered from the grave, and His prayer was heard.

God raised Him from the dead.

 

[Charlie24]

Do you read about things related to Jesus and say “that was His human side” or “that was His divine side”?

Before the Word was incarnated, the Son of God never got hungry, thirsty, sleepy, or worried about anything.

So when the Word was born from Mary, He entered a whole new experience as a fleshly mortal human. Thus, He could also be tempted every way we are, including sexually and enticements to shun suffering and seek comfort and luxury.

Are the two natures of Jesus, human and divine, completely blended into one indivisible entity — or are they distinct and separate, but unified in purpose?

Did Jesus, who was the Word manifested in the flesh, have to study the Torah as He grew up from childhood to adult? When Jesus was 3 years old, did He know He was God manifested in the flesh? Or did this realization develop gradually as He studied scripture? Did Mary and Joseph help Him understand it?

God cannot get weary, but the human side of Jesus slept on the boat, then He was awakened by His disciples, and the divine side of Jesus took command of nature and rebuked the storm.

When in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus sweated what looked like great drops of blood, and asked God the Father to let the cup of crucifixion pass from Him, but also said He would submit to whatever was the Father’s will. Divinity cannot fear or dread. Was that anxiety about crucifixion a manifestation of the human side of Jesus?

I believe Christ set aside His power as God and became a man just as we are, but He could not set aside the fact He was God.

He walked by faith, depending on the Holy Spirit fully, not knowing what was around the next corner unless the Holy Spirit told Him in advance.

All the miracles were performed by the Holy Spirit through Him, and He desired only to fulfill the work of His Father.

I believe when He stunned the masters of the Law at 12 years old with His knowledge it was the Holy Spirit that gave it to Him, the first sign to the Sanhedrin of He was.

 

[Ascetic X]

7​	Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 7

He was NOT trying to circumvent the cross, He was asking to be delivered from the grave, and His prayer was heard.

God raised Him from the dead.

The cup that Jesus asked the Father to take away from Him was the grave?

In the Old Testament, the "cup" never signifies death. Cup frequently represents the fury and wrath of God poured out on wickedness. Thus, Jesus was hoping there might be some other way to redeem mankind. Jesus dreaded suffering the full wrath of God for all the sins of humanity throughout history, including yours and mine.

I recently have been praying that I am sorry Jesus had to experience all that pain, humiliation, anguish, and forsakeness.

Jeremiah 25:15

For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

Jeremiah 49:12

For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it.

Isaiah 51:17

Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.

Psalm 75:8

For a cup is in the hand of the LORD, full of foaming wine mixed with spices. He pours from His cup, and all the wicked of the earth drink it down to the dregs.

Job 21:20

His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.

Revelation 14:10

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The possibility of Mary and Joseph teaching the Torah and Tehillim (Psalms) to the child Jesus hinges upon when the divine side of Jesus was obvious to Him. Age 3? Age 6? Age 12?

Did Jesus discover His divinity by direct revelation by the Holy Spirit? Or when the young Jesus was reading the Torah or Tehillim, did He at some point say, “Hey! That is talking about Me!”? Or could that have happened when He heard the scriptures at temple? This is a mysterious aspect of Jesus.

Oh these are all good questions. There is a ‘18 list years that the Bible doesn’t discuss” with us.Just what happened in Jesus development?

 

[kyredneck]

The cup that Jesus asked the Father to take away from Him was the grave?

Death. The grave.

He could have avoided the cross had He wanted:

Matthew Chapter 26

53​	Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?

But His mindset was to fulfill His mission:

John Chapter 12 -

27​	Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour.

The supplications of Matthew 26:39 and Hebrews 5:7 are borne out in the Messianic Psalms.

 

[JesusFan]

7​	Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 7

He was NOT trying to circumvent the cross, He was asking to be delivered from the grave, and His prayer was heard.

God raised Him from the dead.

In His humanity, he was recoiling at the aspect that when he became the lamb of God upon that cross, he would be facing the Father turning away from Him as the sin bearer

 

[kyredneck]

In His humanity...

...He was yet IMPECCABLE. He NEVER sinned, He did NOT ask amiss, He was NOT asking against God's will. He was asking for something that was perfectly within God's will.

 

[Charlie24]

In His humanity, he was recoiling at the aspect that when he became the lamb of God upon that cross, he would be facing the Father turning away from Him as the sin bearer

Spurgeon said the agony in the Garden was the overwhelming weight of Divine wrath against human sin being placed on Him as the Substitute.

He summed it up as being the final battle with Satan, an intense spiritual conflict.

I don't know, it could have been a combination of things.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

...He was yet IMPECCABLE. He NEVER sinned, He did NOT ask amiss, He was NOT asking against God's will. He was asking for something that was perfectly within God's will.

Where do you come up with all this Larry, you didn’t go to a Bible university did you? Honestly I can’t keep up…I grew up in RCC and that should tell you something about my lack of scripture knowledge.

...He was yet IMPECCABLE. He NEVER sinned, He did NOT ask amiss, He was NOT asking against God's will. He was asking for something that was perfectly within God's will.

Did you go to a seminary Larry … where did all this biblical knowledge come from… certainly not a pipe fitters Union.

I don’t read scriptures like you do, not being raised in the dominant RCC… not being a Greek/Italian The fact they want to keep you stupid and unaware, so I don’t stress scripture, only what they want you to know thereby keeping you ignorant.

When I read scripture, I look for hidden meanings, what are they really trying to say in a lot of times I look at it from a skeptical perspective. If I knew Greek Latin and Hebrew, I’d be further along because I would look for all the hidden meanings so now I have to rely on these pastors to straighten me out when I’m going in the wrong direction ha ha ha. however, I still consider myself a radical Christian, always digging deep to find hidden truth. Must come from the coal miners blood.

So what say you, what about those hidden 18 years that are blotted from our view… what went on in Christs development, who mentored him? Did he really raise from the dead, was he dead when he was removed from the cross? I’ve got lots of questions

 

[Ascetic X]

...He was yet IMPECCABLE. He NEVER sinned, He did NOT ask amiss, He was NOT asking against God's will. He was asking for something that was perfectly within God's will.

The Bible interprets itself. “Cup” as symbol in Old Testament means God’s wrath, not death or grave. Any concordance will show you verses about drinking from the cup of God’s wrath and fury against sin. I already quoted several for you.

Jesus was not trying to avoid God’s will by asking if the cup of crucifixion could be bypassed.

Jesus, from His human side, asked that the cup be taken away, for Jesus dreaded all the pain and humiliation of the cross. But Jesus concluded His prayer in submission to His Father’s will. The human side of Jesus was so exhausted from realizing how horrible crucifixion was, He was strengthened by angels after He ended His prayer, even though He was God the Son manifested in the flesh.

In Gethsemane, the two natures of Jesus, human and divine, are seen vividly and poignantly.

Now according to traditional Christian theology (Dyothelitism), Jesus had two distinct wills—a divine will shared with the Father and a human will—both of these wills operated in perfect harmony. Even though His human will was separate from His divine will, they were not in conflict. His human will allowed him to experience and resist temptation, in order to freely choose submission to God’s will, such as in agreeing to come down to earth in Mary’s womb and in His prayer in Gethsemane.

This distinction is essential for understanding Jesus as truly human, allowing him to sympathize with human weaknesses, and to provide a model of perfect, consistent obedience.

Luke 22:41,42,43

41And He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, where He knelt down and prayed,

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43Then an angel from heaven appeared to Him and strengthened Him.…

John 6:38

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

 

[kyredneck]

Where do you come up with all this

Here and there over many years.

The Impeccability of Christ​

 

[kyredneck]

The Bible interprets itself. “Cup” as symbol in Old Testament means God’s wrath

K. I get it. This passage is a holy sacred grail to you that Christ, Jehovah in the flesh, in a moment of human weakness, tried to abort the mission.

Jesus was not trying to avoid God’s will by asking if the cup of crucifixion could be bypassed.

??? It was NOT God's will for Him to hang on a tree?

I reiterate:

He could have avoided the cross had He wanted:

Matthew Chapter 26

53​	Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?

But His mindset was to fulfill His mission:

John Chapter 12 -

27​	Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour.

 

[Ascetic X]

@kyredneck - Jesus dreading the crucifixion agony, and asking if the cup of God’s wrath could be bypassed, has nothing to do with the impeccability of Christ…or wanting to abort His mission.

If Jesus could have died painlessly and peacefully, He would not have prayed that specific prayer in Gethsemane. It was not a moment of human weakness, it was the human side of Jesus realizing the extreme pain and suffering He was headed toward.

His human will was separate from His divine will, but they were united, for Jesus always submitted and voluntarily did His Father’s will.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

When theologians after the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD) say Christ has two wills, it doesn't mean that he has two competing centres of conscious willing. It means that he has two sets of desires that correspond to his two natures. He wants what God wants and he also wants the things that a human properly wants.

Brilliant theologians have understood the great importance to theology that Jesus possesses two wills, one divine and one human, since He is truly God and truly human. All branches of Christianity have embraced this doctrine as important orthodox theology.

 

[kyredneck]

@kyredneck - Jesus dreading the crucifixion agony, and asking if the cup of God’s wrath could be bypassed, has nothing to do with the impeccability of Christ…or wanting to abort His mission.

I disagree. His real dread was death. As The Word made flesh He had known nothing but existence but was willing to give up that eternal existence if it were the Father's will (quite the difference from your humanistic corruption). He was asking for life. God heard. He raised Him from the dead.

The following passages from the Psalms are Messianic (Christ's passion and in the grave; God hears, raises Him from the dead) and are directly related to what is recorded in Matthew 26:39, Hebrews 5:7, Jonah 2:

He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, Even length of days for ever and ever. Ps 21:4

For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Ps 16:10

8 I cried to thee, O Jehovah; And unto Jehovah I made supplication:
9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
10 Hear, O Jehovah, and have mercy upon me: Jehovah, be thou my helper. Ps 30

4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears. Ps 18

4 Pluck me out of the net that they have laid privily for me; For thou art my stronghold.
5 Into thy hand I commend my spirit: Thou hast redeemed me, O Jehovah, thou God of truth.
13 For I have heard the defaming of many, Terror on every side: While they took counsel together against me, They devised to take away my life.
14 But I trusted in thee, O Jehovah: I said, Thou art my God.
15 My times are in thy hand: Deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.
16 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: Save me in thy lovingkindness.
17 Let me not be put to shame, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in Sheol.
22 As for me, I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: Nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications When I cried unto thee. Ps 31

( and there are too many other lengthy ones to include here)

 

[Ascetic X]

I disagree. His real dread was death. As The Word made flesh He had known nothing but existence but was willing to give up that eternal existence if it were the Father's will (quite the difference from your humanistic corruption). He was asking for life. God heard. He raised Him from the dead.

I have already shown you how the cup that Jesus asked about bypassing was not death, but was biblically the cup of God’s wrath. Death is never referred to as a cup.

Matthew 26:42

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Jesus’s dread was not just of physical death, but the extreme pain of crucifixion and the profound spiritual horror of bearing the penalty for human sin, resulting in temporary abandonment by God.

Jesus was never afraid of ceasing to exist. Jesus knew death would not end His existence. His human side dreaded the pain and suffering of dying on the cross, being made sin, and forsaken by God. Jesus knew He was going to rise from the dead. That was never a question in His mind.

John 2:19, 20, 21

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

But he spake of the temple of his body.


Matthew 20

17As Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, He took the twelve disciples aside and said,

18“Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death

19and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life.”

 

[kyredneck]

Death is never referred to as a cup.

Wow. Every time you drink the communion 'cup' you proclaim His death.

1st Corinthians Chapter 11

26​	For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord`s death till he come.

I have already shown you how the cup that Jesus asked about bypassing was not death, but was biblically the cup of God’s wrath.

Wow. The cup of God's wrath was only about the suffering of the cross? Death not included?

IMO, you're so ensconced in the dogma of your system you'll never see the synonymy of passages like these:

John Chapter 17

5​	And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Hebrews Chapter 5

7​	Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,

Matthew Chapter 26

39​	And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

No, you say Christ was simply begging God not to hurt Him too bad.

 

[JonC]

Do you read about things related to Jesus and say “that was His human side” or “that was His divine side”?

I do not. The reason is I believe that the Chalcedonian and Athanasian Creeds got that right. Jesus did everything as Jesus.

I do believe He did all through the power of the Spirit in perfect obedience to the Father (if that helps).