Human vs. Divine Side of Jesus

[Ascetic X]

Wow. The cup of God's wrath was only about the suffering of the cross? Death not included?

No, you say Christ was simply begging God not to hurt Him too bad.

You deliberately misrepresent what I have been saying.

I have repeatedly stated that the cup that Jesus asked if God would let pass from Him was the pain and agony of death by crucifixion, plus the horror of taking on Himself all the sins of the world, thus being forsaken temporarily by God.

You have said Jesus was afraid of ceasing to exist after His death, which is absurd, since Jesus declared multiple times that He would be put to death, then resurrect from the dead 3 days later.

 

[Ascetic X]

I do not. The reason is I believe that the Chalcedonian and Athanasian Creeds got that right. Jesus did everything as Jesus.

I do believe He did all through the power of the Spirit in perfect obedience to the Father (if that helps).

But Jesus was both God and man.

His human side slept on the boat, then His divine side rebuked the storm and made it be still.

His divine side did not hunger, thirst, or sleep, and was not tempted.

His human side hungered, thirsted, slept, and was tempted.

Matthew 26:41 — The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Jesus knew the flesh was weak, for He grew weary and hungry and required rest. Temptations of the flesh also assailed Him, but He never sinned.

 

[JonC]

But Jesus was both God and man.

His human side slept on the boat, then His divine side rebuked the storm and made it be still.

His divine side did not hunger, thirst, or sleep, and was not tempted.

His human side hungered, thirsted, slept, and was tempted.

Matthew 26:41 — The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Jesus knew the flesh was weak, for He grew weary and hungry and required rest. Temptations of the flesh also assailed Him, but He never sinned.

Traditional Christianty would say God/man (no less God than God, no more man than man; 100% God/100% man; two nature's without mixture or division).

Jesus referred to Himself most often as the Son of Man. And He attributed His works as being through the Spirit for the glory of the Father.

How does all of that work?
No clue. Not my lane.

 

[kyredneck]

I have repeatedly stated that the cup that Jesus asked if God would let pass from Him was the pain and agony of death by crucifixion, plus the horror of taking on Himself all the sins of the world, thus being forsaken temporarily by God.

Are you able to flesh all that out from scripture? Even on His way to the cross He was intent on fulfilling His mission as prophet to Israel in 'the last days' of her covenant, warning of the wrath that was soon to come upon them:

Luke Chapter 23

28​	But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

It doesn't seem to me that He was overwhelmed with fear of the horrors of His illegal execution. Quite the opposite:

John Chapter 12 -

27​	Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour.

He courageously never lost sight of His mission and was thinking of others to the end. HE WAS IMPECCABLE.

Instead of reading your humanistic interpretation into it, show from scripture "that Jesus asked if God would let pass from Him the pain and agony" of the cross.

 

[kyredneck]

You deliberately misrepresent what I have been saying.

No, I haven't. I've pointed out your tunnel vision. You're focused only on the agony of the cross and not the death.

 

[Ascetic X]

Are you able to flesh all that out from scripture?

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He courageously never lost sight of His mission and was thinking of others to the end.

Instead of reading your humanistic interpretation into it, show from scripture "that Jesus asked if God would let pass from Him was the pain and agony" of the cross.

I include the death, the crucifixion, along with the agony.

You emphasize and isolate just the death, because you claim unbiblically that Jesus feared non-existence after He died.

You cannot show from scripture that Jesus was dreading that He would not exist after death… since Jesus repeatedly said He would be executed, then rise from the dead in 3 days.

Cup = wrath of God. This wrath fell upon Jesus, when He was crucified, and that wrath caused pain, humiliation, agony, temporary separation from God, and death.

Psalm 75:8 ESV /​

For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.

Isaiah 51:22 ESV /​

Thus says your Lord, the Lord, your God who pleads the cause of his people: “Behold, I have taken from your hand the cup of staggering; the bowl of my wrath you shall drink no more;

Isaiah 51:17-23 ESV /​

Wake yourself, wake yourself, stand up, O Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of his wrath, who have drunk to the dregs the bowl, the cup of staggering.

John 18:11 ESV /​

So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

Jeremiah 25:15 ESV /​

Thus the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.

///////////////////

Luke 22 states that Jesus asked God to take the cup from Him. Cup symbolizes the wrath of God, put upon Jesus who bore the sins of the world. So Jesus prayed again, and experienced anguish. Not anguish about not existing.

41He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

 

[kyredneck]

First, you show from scripture that Jesus was dreading that He would not exist after death.

That in response to your statement:

Jesus’s dread was not just of physical death, but the extreme pain of crucifixion and the profound spiritual horror of bearing the penalty for human sin, resulting in temporary abandonment by God.

I replied:

I disagree. His real dread concern was death. As The Word made flesh He had known nothing but existence but was willing to give up that eternal existence if it were the Father's will (quite the difference from your humanistic corruption). He was asking for life. God heard. He raised Him from the dead.

If it was not on His mind he would not have been asking to be saved from death and to be returned to the glory He had before with the Father.

 

[Ascetic X]

That in response to your statement:

I replied:

If it was not on His mind he would not have been asking to be saved from death and to be returned to the glory He had before with the Father.

You falsely claim Jesus begged God not to cause Him to cease to exist after death. Jesus repeatedly proclaimed that He would be executed, then rise from the dead 3 days later.

Jesus did not ask to be saved from death. Jesus knew He had to die and knew He would rise again.

Luke 9:22

“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

Luke 24:5,6,7

And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”


John 2:19, 20, 21

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

But he spake of the temple of his body.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus repeatedly proclaimed that He would be executed, then rise from the dead 3 days later.

Yet He made supplications to God to ‘save Him from death’. God heard Him. He raised Him from dead. God delivered Christ from death/Sheol/the grave/the unrighteous judgement of the Jews. You are ignoring the import of that because it doesn’t fit into your humanistic corruption of the passage, and, you’re bent only on winning instead of learning, which is pretty much the norm on this board. Nothing unique about you,

 

[Ascetic X]

Yet He made supplications to God to ‘save Him from death’. You are ignoring the import of that because it doesn’t fit into your humanistic corruption of the passage, and, you’re bent only on winning instead of learning, which is pretty much the norm on this board. Nothing unique about you,

Why would Jesus supplicate God to save Him from non-existence after death, when Jesus stated repeatedly that He would rise from the grave in 3 days?

No scripture says God saved Jesus from the unrighteousness judgment of the Jews, for that was exactly what the crucifixion was.

Scripture totally contradicts your assertions. Jesus was not afraid that He would not exist after death, as you claim. No reputable theologian has ever made this absurd claim.

John 2:19, 20, 21

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

But he spake of the temple of his body.

Hebrews 5:7-9

7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him .

This does not imply that Jesus was afraid that if He died, He might not ever exist again. It just states that Jesus prayed to the One who could save Him from death. And God the Father did indeed save Jesus from death, and raise Him from the dead, just like Jesus predicted repeatedly.

You denigrate this Baptist Board, saying it is the norm here to “want to win instead of learn”, but you have nothing to teach.

 

[kyredneck]

Why would Jesus supplicate God to save Him from non-existence after death, when Jesus stated repeatedly that He would rise from the grave in 3 days?

Duh, to fulfill the scripture! And, He was forever setting the example. He was impeccable

 

[kyredneck]

Good night.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here and there over many years.

The Impeccability of Christ​

Ahh yes, Arthur Pink. I should have known… one of my favorites!

 

[kyredneck]

No scripture says God saved Jesus from the unrighteousness judgment of the Jews, for that was exactly what the crucifixion was.

The resurrection annulled their unrighteous, illegal judgement.

who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7

I believe the statement, 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt' (Mt 26:39), was Christ committing 'himself to him the judgeth righteously'. He knew that God would not leave His soul in Sheol,

I believe that His request from the same verse, 'if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me', was a supplication to 'him that was able to save him from death'.

I believe the fact that God raised Him from the dead shows both that His supplication was heard, and that God declared Christ to be righteous though the Jews judged Him to be worthy of death.

Note the redundancy of the message from the Spirit to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

Acts 3:
14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 4:
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.

Acts 7:
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,

Acts 13:
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:

 

[JesusFan]

The resurrection annulled their unrighteous, illegal judgement.

who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7

I believe the statement, 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt' (Mt 26:39), was Christ committing 'himself to him the judgeth righteously'. He knew that God would not leave His soul in Sheol,

I believe that His request from the same verse, 'if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me', was a supplication to 'him that was able to save him from death'.

I believe the fact that God raised Him from the dead shows both that His supplication was heard, and that God declared Christ to be righteous though the Jews judged Him to be worthy of death.

Note the redundancy of the message from the Spirit to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

Acts 3:
14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 4:
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.

Acts 7:
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,

Acts 13:
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:

Jesus is God, and Jesus had a physical resurrection, correct?

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus is God, and Jesus had a physical resurrection, correct?

Oh. Does the 'heresy bird' see something suspicious in my quoting of Ps 16:10? Does the 'heresy bird' see something amiss in Paul's use of it in Acts 13:35?

 

[kyredneck]

The Bible interprets itself. “Cup” as symbol in Old Testament means God’s wrath, not death or grave.

I have already shown you how the cup that Jesus asked about bypassing was not death, but was biblically the cup of God’s wrath. Death is never referred to as a cup.

I'm pretty sure that every example of 'cups of God's wrath' you've given involved death.

 

[kyredneck]

The possibility of Mary and Joseph teaching the Torah and Tehillim (Psalms) to the child Jesus hinges upon when the divine side of Jesus was obvious to Him. Age 3? Age 6? Age 12?

John the Baptist jumped for joy at His divine presence while in the womb.

Did Jesus discover His divinity by direct revelation by the Holy Spirit?

That's the way WE discover his divinity:

Matthew Chapter 16

17​	And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Van]

Do you read about things related to Jesus and say “that was His human side” or “that was His divine side”?

Before the Word was incarnated, the Son of God never got hungry, thirsty, sleepy, or worried about anything.

So when the Word was born from Mary, He entered a whole new experience as a fleshly mortal human. Thus, He could also be tempted every way we are, including sexually and enticements to shun suffering and seek comfort and luxury.

Are the two natures of Jesus, human and divine, completely blended into one indivisible entity — or are they distinct and separate, but unified in purpose?

Did Jesus, who was the Word manifested in the flesh, have to study the Torah as He grew up from childhood to adult? When Jesus was 3 years old, did He know He was God manifested in the flesh? Or did this realization develop gradually as He studied scripture? Did Mary and Joseph help Him understand it?

God cannot get weary, but the human side of Jesus slept on the boat, then He was awakened by His disciples, and the divine side of Jesus took command of nature and rebuked the storm.

When in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus sweated what looked like great drops of blood, and asked God the Father to let the cup of crucifixion pass from Him, but also said He would submit to whatever was the Father’s will. Divinity cannot fear or dread. Was that anxiety about crucifixion a manifestation of the human side of Jesus?

1) Did Jesus learn? Luke 2:40, 52 suggests as He aged, His manifested knowledge and wisdom increased.

2) Our physical bodies desire comfort, absence of pain, and security, avoidance of harm or death. Jesus experienced the same impulses.

3) Of course we can get weary, while at the same time our minds may be anxious.

4) Divinity, God's Spirit, can receive an understanding of fear. Jesus would not have been human if He did not, on some level, want to avoid the suffering and death He had to endure. But after much prayer, He willingly went forth to drink the cup, as our perfect sacrifice.