Hundreds Of Questions About The Christian God

[irmadlad]

Yes Lucifer did have free will. All the angels did. Would God have needed to make a Lucifer 2.0, NO.
God being omniscient foreknew all that would happen. If Lucifer had chosen not to rebel then that is what God would have known would happen. But as we know Lucifer and a third of the angels did choose to rebel and as they say the rest is history.


Yes Adam & Eve did have a free will. Could they have chosen differently, of course as that is what free will means. But they chose to believe the lie and here we are living in a world that has both love and hate. Free will is a gift of God and as it turns out it is either the best or worst gift a person can have.


Because if man did not have a free will with which to choose to worship or to reject God then could you say it was real worship?
If man had only one option, worship God, then it would be no different than having a robot say I worship God.
We see in Deu 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." Those words presuppose a genuine free will decision on the persons part.

So the options are create a world such as we see or one where every thought and action has been predetermined.

I'm saying that if God knows something with certainty from eternity, it cannot happen otherwise. Not because of coercion, but because of the logical structure of infallible knowledge. If something could turn out differently, then God's foreknowledge would be wrong, and an omniscient God cannot be wrong. Therefore, whatever God knows will happen, and must happen. The future is fixed. Not open, not flexible, not contingent on human choices. Fixed.

This distinction matters more than it might seem. There's a difference between saying the future is fixed - locked in place by the logical structure of infallible knowledge - and saying God determined it - actively willed and authored every outcome. The first is logical determinism. The second is theological determinism. I'm claiming both, and the bridge between them is this: God didn't just know what would happen. He chose to create a world He knew would unfold this way, when He could have created a different world, or no world at all. His creative act was a selection among possibilities, and He selected the one He knew would produce Lucifer, the Fall, 170 billion souls, and eternal torment for most of them. Foreknowledge makes the future unchangeable. The creative choice makes God responsible for the future He foreknew. He didn't just see the movie; He greenlit the production.

There are many ways to test this, but I'll pick the book of Revelation. What is the book of Revelation all about? What's going to happen. Not what might happen, or could happen if we don't change our ways. Revelation is all about what's going to happen. No matter what transpires between Genesis 1:1 and whenever Revelation kicks off, Revelation will happen. It is fixed. It's set in stone because that is the way God planned it, and God does not plan that which does not happen.

I didn't ask to be born. I didn't choose to enter a world already steeped in sin. And according to traditional Christian doctrine, I arrived already marked, not for anything I did, but because of what Adam and Eve did. This is the doctrine of original sin, and it raises a staggering moral and fairness question. I'm condemned before I've taken a single breath, for a decision made thousands, perhaps billions of years before I existed, by two people who were themselves set up to fail by a God who knew they would.

The book of Revelation is not presented as a warning or a possibility tree. It's presented as what will happen. John isn't told, "here's what might occur if things continue." He's shown what must take place. The very structure of apocalyptic literature in the Biblical tradition is one of certainty, not contingency. "Write therefore what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later."

God, from eternity, knew every detail of everything that would ever happen. His knowledge is infallible. It cannot be wrong. Therefore, everything that happens is fixed and cannot happen otherwise. Therefore, there is no genuine free will in any meaningful sense. True free will would be the ability to do something that a God without limitations didn't anticipate. If there is no genuine free will, then every sin ever committed, every damnation ever rendered, and every moment of suffering ever experienced was not merely permitted by God, it was determined by the very structure of His foreknowledge and creative act. The buck stops, and stays, with Him.

Thank you for your time and patience.

 

[irmadlad]

2 Timothy 3:1-9

Matthew 18:2-4

It is evident which path that the OP has chosen. The instruction, from the scriptures, is from such to turn away.

I have made no such decision on any path. Why would you even jump to that conclusion? I realize you are convinced and staunch in your convictions. I respect that and if you live in America, I'll staunchly defend your right to worship whatever you please, so long as three criteria are strictly adhered to. However, in as much as you are convicted and fervent in your beliefs, so are 8.4 billion people who occupy this planet.

This is why I say that all religions and their associated gods or goddesses seem the same. Sure, they all have different beliefs, different theologies, different ways of obtaining eternal reward and avoiding eternal damnation. However, when we boil the ox down to the bouillon cube, here is what they all say: "If you do not believe the way we do, the book we believe, and the God we believe in and so fervently worship, then you will not go to our eternal reward, but you will go to our eternal damnation." Every one of them.

No one is coming to my door and saying:

"Hey, we just opened up a church down the road. We have Sunday morning and evening services and a get-together on Wednesday. We'd love to see you there."

"Really? Well, what are some of your belief structures or theologies?"

"Well, we really don't have any. Truth be known, we're probably all going to hell, but we're having a great time. Come on by."

No one is saying that. They all believe they are right. By the very laws that this universe operates under, we all can't be going to eternal reward, else there would be no need for eternal damnation, and vice versa. I have never met one person who practices a religion and worships a god fervently who does so because they have nothing better to do on Sundays and Wednesdays or whenever they observe the Sabbath. It's not a hobby.

 

[irmadlad]

Madlad,

You mentioned in your post in the Introduction forum:



Quite clearly, you are searching for "something". That is a whole lot of stuff to study, but still, you are here
searching, as too many questions remain.

It is my most sincere hope you will bear with me, as I am going to ask you to set all of that knowledge aside
for a moment. All of the complex theological and metaphysical study in the world can not save our souls;
instead, it becomes a swamp of theological quicksand that we find ourselves sunk in up to our necks. Questions
upon questions, and the constant comparison of one thing to another. Quite a mess to sort through, indeed.

FWIW, my wife tells me I lack "filters", so I apologize in advance for my bluntness and plain speaking. This may
be a lengthy post, but again, I ask you to bear with me and follow it through.

Understanding basic Christianity does not require one bit of deep, theological study. It is so simple a
child can understand.

Facts in evidence: Jesus Christ lived, was beaten, crucified and died, rose again and ascended into heaven.

But ..why?

Because we are sinners. If it hadn't been Adam and Eve, I assure you someone else would have screwed up
and broke God's commandments. Sin is a stain on our souls, and God will not have such in His Heaven.
God so loves us, that instead of all of mankind being separated from God for eternity, God sent His Son,
Jesus Christ, to be a propitiation for us......Jesus, who was without blemish or sin, died so that we (you too)
would have an opportunity to go to Heaven and spend eternity with God.

You may say "I know all this"... yes, I believe you do, intellectually...but do you know it in your HEART?
As I once told my older brother..."Kelly, you can't brain your way into salvation and Heaven".

You joined this site, and a couple of others on the same day, which to me seems that God is drawing you
to find the most simple of answers.

John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus suffered and died to pay for my sins, your sins, and the sin of all mankind so that, if we choose, we can
accept the payment made for us. Simply accepting what Jesus did for you will not only bring salvation to your soul,
but also the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a Teacher to guide you in your new Christian life. It is a Win - Win.

What about all those other made up religions and metaphysical theologies? Interesting stuff to know, but when it comes
to knowing God and Jesus Christ they ain't worth spit.

Jesus said to a man: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Because of His sacrifice, Jesus has every right: " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "

In Romans 10- verses 9-13
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

Madlad, coming to KNOW Jesus, personally, and being saved from an eternity in hell is where Christianity
begins. All that beneficial theological knowledge can come later.

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved."

So simple to understand.

With all my heart and prayers, I urge you to accept the payment that Jesus has made for you.

Mike

Madlad,

You mentioned in your post in the Introduction forum:



Quite clearly, you are searching for "something". That is a whole lot of stuff to study, but still, you are here
searching, as too many questions remain.

It is my most sincere hope you will bear with me, as I am going to ask you to set all of that knowledge aside
for a moment. All of the complex theological and metaphysical study in the world can not save our souls;
instead, it becomes a swamp of theological quicksand that we find ourselves sunk in up to our necks. Questions
upon questions, and the constant comparison of one thing to another. Quite a mess to sort through, indeed.

FWIW, my wife tells me I lack "filters", so I apologize in advance for my bluntness and plain speaking. This may
be a lengthy post, but again, I ask you to bear with me and follow it through.

Understanding basic Christianity does not require one bit of deep, theological study. It is so simple a
child can understand.

Facts in evidence: Jesus Christ lived, was beaten, crucified and died, rose again and ascended into heaven.

But ..why?

Because we are sinners. If it hadn't been Adam and Eve, I assure you someone else would have screwed up
and broke God's commandments. Sin is a stain on our souls, and God will not have such in His Heaven.
God so loves us, that instead of all of mankind being separated from God for eternity, God sent His Son,
Jesus Christ, to be a propitiation for us......Jesus, who was without blemish or sin, died so that we (you too)
would have an opportunity to go to Heaven and spend eternity with God.

You may say "I know all this"... yes, I believe you do, intellectually...but do you know it in your HEART?
As I once told my older brother..."Kelly, you can't brain your way into salvation and Heaven".

You joined this site, and a couple of others on the same day, which to me seems that God is drawing you
to find the most simple of answers.

John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus suffered and died to pay for my sins, your sins, and the sin of all mankind so that, if we choose, we can
accept the payment made for us. Simply accepting what Jesus did for you will not only bring salvation to your soul,
but also the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a Teacher to guide you in your new Christian life. It is a Win - Win.

What about all those other made up religions and metaphysical theologies? Interesting stuff to know, but when it comes
to knowing God and Jesus Christ they ain't worth spit.

Jesus said to a man: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Because of His sacrifice, Jesus has every right: " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "

In Romans 10- verses 9-13
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

Madlad, coming to KNOW Jesus, personally, and being saved from an eternity in hell is where Christianity
begins. All that beneficial theological knowledge can come later.

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved."

So simple to understand.

With all my heart and prayers, I urge you to accept the payment that Jesus has made for you.

Mike

RE: Quite clearly, you are searching for "something". That is a whole lot of stuff to study, but still, you are here
searching, as too many questions remain.

Indeed, and I'll tell you exactly what I'm searching for. It's what I call the truth trifecta: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Now, as I mentioned to another commenter, I realize you are convinced and staunch in your convictions, and I respect that. However, so are 8.4 billion other people that occupy this planet. You figuratively point your finger at them and say 'You're wrong'. They point their finger at you and say 'Oh no, it is you who are wrong'.

RE: Jesus suffered and died to pay for my sins, your sins, and the sin of all mankind

At the very least, God created the very mechanism by which sin entered this world. And he did so with infallible knowledge of each and every action His creation would make. He even says so: I create good. I create evil. I do all these things for I am the Lord thy God. The smallest amount of time man has been able to measure is called Planck time expressed as tP≈5.39×10 to the negative 44 seconds. He knows us on even a more granular scale than that. So, he set up a world in which He introduced sin and all the pain and suffering that goes along with it. Why? It's not that evil snuck in despite God's plan. It was baked into the plan from before the foundation of the world, by an omniscient Creator who knew exactly what He was building.

RE: So simple to understand.

I beg your pardon, but it is not that simple for me. It might have been simple for you, and again, I respect that, but I have a lot of questions before I even get to that point.

 

[irmadlad]

In his first couple of points, I. & II., see what you think about what this author said there, for starters, in:

"I. Definition of Theology: Theology is the science of God and of the relations between God and the universe. Though the word “theology” is sometimes employed in dogmatic writings to designate that single department of the Science which treats of the Divine Nature and Attributes. Prevailing usage, since Abelard (AD 10791142) entitled his general treatise “Theologia Christiana,” has included under that term Theology, the whole range of Christian Doctrine. Theology, therefore, gives account, not only of God, but also of those relations between God and the Universe in view of which we speak of Creation, Providence and Redemption..."

"II. Aim: The aim of Theology is the ascertainment of the facts respecting God and the relations between God and the Universe, and the exhibition of these facts in their rational unity, as connected parts of a formulated and organic system of truth. In defining Theology as a science, we indicate its aim. Science does not create; it discovers. Theology answers to this description of a science. It discovers facts and relations, but it does not create them."

Then, he goes on at this link, but I just wanted to list his Content page, in case we want to address a topic he has listed systematically. Looks like your first three questions or concerns you had form themselves into three broad, Major categories.
.

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY by A.H. Strong
Volume 1 - The Doctrine of God.
Part 1 - Prolegomena ​

Chapter 1 - Idea of Theology
I. Definition
II. Aim.
III. Possibility.
IV. Necessity. - The Necessity of Theology Has Its Grounds
V. Relation to Religion.

Chapter 2 - Material of Theology.
I. Sources of Theology.
II. Limitations of Theology.
III. Relations of Material to Progress in Theology

Chapter 3 - Method of Theology
I. Requisites to the Study.
II. Divisions of Theology.
III. History of Systematic Theology
IV. Order of Treatment in Systematic Theology.
V. Textbooks in Theology,

Part 2 - The Existence of God ​

Chapter 1 - Origin of Our Idea of God’s Existence.
I. First Truths in General.
II. the Existence of God a First Truth.
III Other Supposed Sources of Our Idea of God’s Existence
IV. Contents of This Intuition.

Chapter 2 - Corroborative Evidences of God’s Existence
I. the Cosmological Argument, Or Argument From Change in Nature.
II. the Teleological Argument, Or Argument From Order and Useful Collocation in Nature.
III. the Anthropological Argument, Or Argument From Man’s Mental and Moral Nature.
IV. the Ontological Argument, Or Argument From Our Abstract and Necessary Ideas.

Chapter 3 - Erroneous Explanations, and Conclusion.
I. Materialism.
II. Materialistic Idealism.
III. Idealistic Pantheism.
IV. Ethical Monism.

Part 3 - The Scriptures a Revelation From God. ​

Chapter 1 - Preliminary Considerations.
I. Reasons For Expecting A Revelation From God.
II. Marks of the Revelation Man May Expect.
III. Miracles, As Attesting a Divine Revelation.
IV. Prophecy As Attesting a Divine Revelation.
V. Principles of Historical Evidence Applicable To The Proof of a Divine Revelation

Chapter 2 - Positive Proofs That the Scriptures Are a Divine Revelation.
I. the Genuineness of the Christian Documents,
II. Credibility of the Writers of the Scriptures.
III. the Supernatural Character Of The Scripture Teaching.
IV. the Historical Results of the Propagation Of Scripture Doctrine.

Chapter 3 - Inspiration of the Scriptures.
I. Definition of Inspiration.
II. Proof of Inspiration.
III. Theories of Inspiration.
IV. the Union of the Divine and Human Elements in Inspiration.
V. Objections to the Doctrine of Inspiration.



Part 4 - The Nature, Decrees, and Works of God.
Chapter 1 - The Attributes of God.
I. Definition of the Term Attributes.
II. Relation of the Divine Attributes To the Divine Essence.
III. Methods of Determining the Divine Attributes.
IV. Classification of the Attributes.
V. Absolute Or Immanent Attributes.
VI. Relative Or Transitive Attributes.
VII. Rank and Relations of the Several Attributes.

Chapter 2 - Doctrine of the Trinity.
I. in Scripture There Are Three Who Are Recognized As God.
II. These Three Are So Described in Scripture That We Are Compelled to Conceive of Them As Distinct Persons.
III. This Tri-personality of the Divine Nature Is Not Merely Economic and Temporal, But Is Immanent & Eternal.
IV. This Tri-Personality Is Not Tri-Theism; For, While There Are Three Persons, There Is But One Essence.
V. the Three Persons, Father, Son, And Holy Spirit, Are Equal
VI. Inscrutable, Yet Not Self-Contradictory, This Furnishes the Key to All Other Doctrines.

Chapter 3 - The Decrees of God.
I. Definition of Decrees.
II. Proof of the Doctrine of Decrees.
III. Objections to the Doctrine of Decrees.
IV. Concluding Remarks.

Thank you, though I am unsure of the point you are making. I am familiar with Strong. I have several of his books of which are:
Philosophy and Religion, Christ in Creation and Ethical Monism, and The Great Poets and Their Theology. All very well read.

 

[irmadlad]

Madlad,

You mentioned in your post in the Introduction forum:



Quite clearly, you are searching for "something". That is a whole lot of stuff to study, but still, you are here
searching, as too many questions remain.

It is my most sincere hope you will bear with me, as I am going to ask you to set all of that knowledge aside
for a moment. All of the complex theological and metaphysical study in the world can not save our souls;
instead, it becomes a swamp of theological quicksand that we find ourselves sunk in up to our necks. Questions
upon questions, and the constant comparison of one thing to another. Quite a mess to sort through, indeed.

FWIW, my wife tells me I lack "filters", so I apologize in advance for my bluntness and plain speaking. This may
be a lengthy post, but again, I ask you to bear with me and follow it through.

Understanding basic Christianity does not require one bit of deep, theological study. It is so simple a
child can understand.

Facts in evidence: Jesus Christ lived, was beaten, crucified and died, rose again and ascended into heaven.

But ..why?

Because we are sinners. If it hadn't been Adam and Eve, I assure you someone else would have screwed up
and broke God's commandments. Sin is a stain on our souls, and God will not have such in His Heaven.
God so loves us, that instead of all of mankind being separated from God for eternity, God sent His Son,
Jesus Christ, to be a propitiation for us......Jesus, who was without blemish or sin, died so that we (you too)
would have an opportunity to go to Heaven and spend eternity with God.

You may say "I know all this"... yes, I believe you do, intellectually...but do you know it in your HEART?
As I once told my older brother..."Kelly, you can't brain your way into salvation and Heaven".

You joined this site, and a couple of others on the same day, which to me seems that God is drawing you
to find the most simple of answers.

John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus suffered and died to pay for my sins, your sins, and the sin of all mankind so that, if we choose, we can
accept the payment made for us. Simply accepting what Jesus did for you will not only bring salvation to your soul,
but also the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a Teacher to guide you in your new Christian life. It is a Win - Win.

What about all those other made up religions and metaphysical theologies? Interesting stuff to know, but when it comes
to knowing God and Jesus Christ they ain't worth spit.

Jesus said to a man: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Because of His sacrifice, Jesus has every right: " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "

In Romans 10- verses 9-13
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

Madlad, coming to KNOW Jesus, personally, and being saved from an eternity in hell is where Christianity
begins. All that beneficial theological knowledge can come later.

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved."

So simple to understand.

With all my heart and prayers, I urge you to accept the payment that Jesus has made for you.

Mike

RE: FWIW, my wife tells me I lack "filters", so I apologize in advance for my bluntness and plain speaking. This may
be a lengthy post, but again, I ask you to bear with me and follow it through.

Have no fear. I have always been a direct speaker. I've always felt direct communications is best. If you want to put a Biblical spin on it: Let your Yeas be Yea, and your Nays be Nay.

 

[irmadlad]

@irmadlad could you tell me what you do accept/understand about Christianity?

That would give us a starting point for this discussion.

As far as accepting, I hold none of it as a core conviction, nor do I hold any other God or religion as a core belief. I'm not an atheist. I recognize that it's obvious something happened. Science calls it the Big Bang, religion calls it God and Creation by many names. For all I know, the Big Bang could have been God saying 'Let there be light'. I'm honest enough to say 'I don't know'.

I'm no theologian by a long shot. I just read the words and try to understand. So, I do know quite a bit about Christianity, and to be honest, none of it makes sense. On the flip side of that coin, none of the other Gods and religions make sense either, unless you get into things like Buddhism. I view Buddhism more like a lifestyle. Being at one with all we see and experience. However, in my thinking, all practiced religions should be a lifestyle really.

 

[Deacon]

My concern, irmadlad, is you seem to be playing with the all tools in the kitchen before lighting the stove.
Or more directly, you want to talk theology without dealing with how you personally relate to God.

Taking a certain position regarding free will, original sin, infallibility, etc, does not make one a Christian.
It will not bring you closer to knowing God.
Discussing these here will not give you the answers you need (after all, four Baptist's - five opinions.)

What should concern you is knowing how you relate to God. What does God demand of you? How can you please him?
Start with the basics and later, wrestle with the problems that theologians have been discussing for millennia.

Rob

 

[irmadlad]

My concern, irmadlad, is you seem to be playing with the all tools in the kitchen before lighting the stove.
Or more directly, you want to talk theology without dealing with how you personally relate to God.

Taking a certain position regarding free will, original sin, infallibility, etc, does not make one a Christian.
It will not bring you closer to knowing God.
Discussing these here will not give you the answers you need (after all, four Baptist's - five opinions.)

What should concern you is knowing how you relate to God. What does God demand of you? How can you please him?
Start with the basics and later, wrestle with the problems that theologians have been discussing for millennia.

Rob

RE: My concern, irmadlad, is you seem to be playing with the all tools in the kitchen before lighting the stove.

Would it not be prudent to thoroughly understand the inner machinations of the tools before lighting the stove?

RE: Or more directly, you want to talk theology without dealing with how you personally relate to God.

I am very familiar with the basics: God created, God died, I believe, show me my mansion. And if that level of understanding works for you Rob, then git sum. But that surface level of understanding is not enough for me. To understand God, one must examine and question every facet of God, lest all you know is the basics.

I'm a huge privacy, anonymity, and security advocate, especially on the internet and especially when there are under age children accessing the internet. I have been thoroughly immersed in technology since the days of the Altair 8800 computer. Well before most experienced a computer. I've probably helped hundreds of parents set up their digital devices for their children, because the internet is no place for an unsupervised child. It never has been.

Now you, today, are probably satisfied with clicking a link on a webpage and that information being displayed on your screen almost instantaneously. You might be satisfied with that level of surface knowledge. However, if you asked me 'What happens between the time I click on a link, and the display of information on my screen?' well, I could inundate you with details that could take weeks or months for you to understand. It's not just a simple matter of clicking a link and that information being displayed. It's a very complex process that involves the 7 layers of the OSI Model, and the fact that it happens in almost a split second now days, is pretty amazing.

So surface knowledge, for some, may be just fine. However, the devil is in the details.

 

[Mike B]

'm no theologian by a long shot. I just read the words and try to understand. So, I do know quite a bit about Christianity, and to be honest, none of it makes sense. On the flip side of that coin, none of the other Gods and religions make sense either, unless you get into things like Buddhism. I view Buddhism more like a lifestyle. Being at one with all we see and experience. However, in my thinking, all practiced religions should be a lifestyle really.

Biblical Christianity, plus many of the made-up religions you have studied, have a "Day of Reckoning",
or a day when we, as individuals, must stand before God and account for ourselves.

If He were to ask you: "You were given the gospel, and had many opportunities to repent and
be saved.......Why did you reject my Son?"

How will you answer...maybe with..."Well, I've read a lot of books?"

Not a one of us is guaranteed to see tomorrow's sunrise. Hypothetically, you are standing inside a
house that is on fire..and looking out the door you see Jesus, and He's calling to you so He can save you.

As Billy Graham once said: "God doesn't send anyone to Hell...we make that choice of our own free will."

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, I realize I am the molded asking the molder: Why? As one of His creations, I feel I have every right to ask why. I have every right to question every facet of God. If I don't have that right, that free will, then I am merely a puppet, a robot. Helpless in what goes on around me, because every decision I, or you, could ever make, has already been pre-determined by the architecture of infallible knowledge.

And there you have come to the main difference between Calvinists and all other baptists.

 

[irmadlad]

Biblical Christianity, plus many of the made-up religions you have studied, have a "Day of Reckoning",
or a day when we, as individuals, must stand before God and account for ourselves.

If He were to ask you: "You were given the gospel, and had many opportunities to repent and
be saved.......Why did you reject my Son?"

How will you answer...maybe with..."Well, I've read a lot of books?"

Not a one of us is guaranteed to see tomorrow's sunrise. Hypothetically, you are standing inside a
house that is on fire..and looking out the door you see Jesus, and He's calling to you so He can save you.

As Billy Graham once said: "God doesn't send anyone to Hell...we make that choice of our own free will."

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

RE: As Billy Graham once said: "God doesn't send anyone to Hell...we make that choice of our own free will."

No, we do not have free will. Not when we have an architecture of infallible knowledge.

Let's do an experiment to test this:

Let's speed-run through the book of Revelation to the very end: The Great White Throne Judgment and all the pageantry, sorrow, anguish, and embarrassment of being judged in an open forum for each and every one of our sins. God the Father steps up to the mic and unfurls what is generally called The Book of Life.

Do you think that the contents of this document will be a surprise? Of course not. God is not learning the names as He goes down the list. God does not learn sequentially as humans do. Nothing in this document will be a surprise to a God without limitations. The Book of Life isn't discovered, it is decreed from infinity, because this is the way that God planned it from infinity. God wrote the very Book of Life in infinity. Each and every name contained therein.

God even says so in the Biblical text: "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, but narrow the way that leadeth to life everlasting." What is He saying to me? He's saying that of the 170 billion people (estimated population of the earth to date) who have occupied this planet, the vast majority of His creation, that He created with His own hands, in His own image, and breathed His own breath of life into; the vast majority He is going to send to eternal torment. Only a few will achieve eternal reward. This is divine foreknowledge meets explicit Biblical statistics.

The Book of Life isn't discovered; it's decreed. Revelation presents it as a scroll being opened, not a database being queried. God reads names, not because He's learning them, but because He's confirming what He wrote from eternity. Nothing is surprising. Nothing is contingent. The outcome was sealed before any of us were even conceived.

In Matthew 7:13-14, the Biblical text quantifies the problem. Jesus himself, speaking as God incarnate, says the majority go to destruction. The "few" who find life are just that: few. Not half. Not most. Few. So the math works like this: God knowingly creates billions of souls, breathes His life into them, writes their names in a book He controls, and the vast majority end up in what He describes as fire that never goes out with worms that never die.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Deacon]

...the devil is in the details.

Humble yourself... it will open doors to understanding.

“Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” Mark 10:14b–15 (ESV)

Although God has made himself partly known in Scripture and in his creation, none of us will ever wholly know him or his ways (Isa 55:8-9).
God’s wisdom, knowledge, judgments, and ways are unsearchable and inscrutable (Rom 11:33-36).

Ultimately, knowing God is relational rather than intellectual.
Believers have been given the Spirit, who helps us understand God's ways and how to walk with him (1 Cor 2:10-16).
Eternal life consists in knowing God and Jesus Christ (John 17:3)
You might imagine you know something, but unless you are known by God, your knowledge is without worth (1 Cor 8:1-2)

Rob

 

[Silverhair]

As far as accepting, I hold none of it as a core conviction, nor do I hold any other God or religion as a core belief. I'm not an atheist. I recognize that it's obvious something happened. Science calls it the Big Bang, religion calls it God and Creation by many names. For all I know, the Big Bang could have been God saying 'Let there be light'. I'm honest enough to say 'I don't know'.

I'm no theologian by a long shot. I just read the words and try to understand. So, I do know quite a bit about Christianity, and to be honest, none of it makes sense. On the flip side of that coin, none of the other Gods and religions make sense either, unless you get into things like Buddhism. I view Buddhism more like a lifestyle. Being at one with all we see and experience. However, in my thinking, all practiced religions should be a lifestyle really.

You said "I do know quite a bit about Christianity, and to be honest, none of it makes sense" so I have to ask how do you think we could make sense of it for you? We can point you to creation, prophecies, the death and resurrection of Christ etc but how is that going to be different from what you say you know now?

If you are looking for absolute proof then I am sorry you will not find it. That is why we still have people that disagree about creation, prophecies, the death and resurrection of Christ. It is called faith for a reason. We have looked at all the information that God has provided and concluded that the only logical answer is God. If you can come up with a better answer for creation, prophecies, the death and resurrection of Christ then please provide it.

 

[irmadlad]

Humble yourself... it will open doors to understanding.

“Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” Mark 10:14b–15 (ESV)

Although God has made himself partly known in Scripture and in his creation, none of us will ever wholly know him or his ways (Isa 55:8-9).
God’s wisdom, knowledge, judgments, and ways are unsearchable and inscrutable (Rom 11:33-36).

Ultimately, knowing God is relational rather than intellectual.
Believers have been given the Spirit, who helps us understand God's ways and how to walk with him (1 Cor 2:10-16).
Eternal life consists in knowing God and Jesus Christ (John 17:3)
You might imagine you know something, but unless you are known by God, your knowledge is without worth (1 Cor 8:1-2)

Rob

RE: Ultimately, knowing God is relational rather than intellectual.

One, if God created humans to have a relationship with them, the sir, this is an abusive relationship.

RE: You might imagine you know something,

Rob, here are two examples of things I unequivocally know without a shadow of a doubt and can prove:

I know our planet is round in nature. Even though I've never seen the wind, I know it exists.

The earth is round. You don't believe it; you know it. You can prove it mathematically, observe it directly, confirm it by independent methods that converge on the same answer. Multiple lines of evidence, all consistent, all reproducible. Wind exists. You've never seen it, but you understand the mechanism, you can predict it, reproduce it in a wind tunnel, and measure it. The invisibility of the cause doesn't diminish the verifiability of the effect.

The contrast with religious claims is stark. There is no equivalent. There's no formula, no telescope, no experiment, no wind tunnel for God. You can't fly out to a vantage point and observe the supernatural. You can't reproduce a miracle in controlled conditions. The one thing that would elevate faith to knowledge, independent verification, is precisely the thing that's absent. And not occasionally absent, but structurally absent. By design, faith replaces evidence. Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The Bible itself defines faith as belief in the absence of evidence. That's not a feature. That's the flaw. Especially when God said in numerous passages that you can know.

Christianity says "you must believe." But belief, faith, isn't a property unique to Christianity or even to religion. 8.4 billion people operate on faith in something. The atheist has faith that naturalism accounts for everything. The Muslim has faith in Allah and the Qur'an. The Jim Jones followers had enough faith to drink the Kool-Aid. The Heaven's Gate members had enough faith to end their lives for a comet. Faith, as a category, proves nothing about the truth of what's believed. It only proves the intensity of the believer. And intensity of belief is not a truth indicator. People have been intensely, sincerely wrong throughout human history.

Beliefs are conviction. Knowledge, by it's very structure, requires evidence.

 

[irmadlad]

You said "I do know quite a bit about Christianity, and to be honest, none of it makes sense" so I have to ask how do you think we could make sense of it for you? We can point you to creation, prophecies, the death and resurrection of Christ etc but how is that going to be different from what you say you know now?

If you are looking for absolute proof then I am sorry you will not find it. That is why we still have people that disagree about creation, prophecies, the death and resurrection of Christ. It is called faith for a reason. We have looked at all the information that God has provided and concluded that the only logical answer is God. If you can come up with a better answer for creation, prophecies, the death and resurrection of Christ then please provide it.

Faith. I'll reproduce what I commented to Rob:

I know our planet is round in nature. Even though I've never seen the wind, I know it exists.

The earth is round. You don't believe it; you know it. You can prove it mathematically, observe it directly, confirm it by independent methods that converge on the same answer. Multiple lines of evidence, all consistent, all reproducible. Wind exists. You've never seen it, but you understand the mechanism, you can predict it, reproduce it in a wind tunnel, and measure it. The invisibility of the cause doesn't diminish the verifiability of the effect.

The contrast with religious claims is stark. There is no equivalent. There's no formula, no telescope, no experiment, no wind tunnel for God. You can't fly out to a vantage point and observe the supernatural. You can't reproduce a miracle in controlled conditions. The one thing that would elevate faith to knowledge, independent verification, is precisely the thing that's absent. And not occasionally absent, but structurally absent. By design, faith replaces evidence. Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The Bible itself defines faith as belief in the absence of evidence. That's not a feature. That's the flaw. Especially when God said in numerous passages that you can know. 'That ye may know ye are sons of God'. In Job, 'I know my redeemer livith.'

Christianity says "you must believe." But belief, faith, isn't a property unique to Christianity or even to religion. 8.4 billion people operate on faith in something. The atheist has faith that naturalism accounts for everything. The Muslim has faith in Allah and the Qur'an. The Jim Jones followers had enough faith to drink the Kool-Aid. The Heaven's Gate members had enough faith to end their lives for a comet. Faith, as a category, proves nothing about the truth of what's believed. It only proves the intensity of the believer. And intensity of belief is not a truth indicator. People have been intensely, sincerely wrong throughout human history.

Beliefs are conviction. Knowledge, by it's very structure, requires evidence.

 

[Silverhair]

Beliefs are conviction. Knowledge, by it's very structure, requires evidence

If you will not believe the word of God then exactly what would you believe?

 

[Mike B]

No, we do not have free will.

Yes, you do, and you are exercising that free will right now.

It's a binary question...either you can stay in that burning house and spend eternity separated from God,
or you can humble yourself and freely accept the salvation that is in Jesus Christ.

Take a chance....Reach out to God, and ask Him to help you find faith...Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved
through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

The choice is yours to make. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[irmadlad]

And there you have come to the main difference between Calvinists and all other baptists.

• Free will defense (Plantinga and others): God values genuine freedom so highly that a world with free creatures who can choose evil is better than a world of automatons who cannot. But as I've noted, this addresses the creature's choice, not the Creator's prior decision.

• Greater good theodicies: God permits evil because it serves a greater purpose that humans may not fully comprehend. The book of Job wrestles with this directly and ultimately leaves the question largely unresolved.

• Soul-making theodicies (Hick): Suffering is necessary for spiritual growth and moral development. The world is a "vale of soul-making." I would argue this still doesn't justify the sheer scale of suffering.

• The "risk" perspective (open theism): Some modern theologians argue that God chose not to fully know future free choices - that God takes a genuine risk in creating. This directly challenges the premise of infinite foreknowledge as I laid it out, but it's a minority position in traditional Christianity.

• Calvinist/Reformed perspective: This tradition actually leans into my framing rather than away from it. God ordains all things, including the Fall, for His purposes. For example, the Westminster Confession essentially states this, but I find this answer morally difficult.

 

[Deacon]

Your studies have lead you astray.
Faith is not the opposite of evidence-based truth.
Faith is not a leap in the dark.
It does not require us to close our eyes and ignore relevant evidence, it is not irrational.

You have misunderstood Hebrew 11:1, taking it out of context.

Faith is a “reasonable, action-oriented response grounded in the conviction that God’s invisible underlying realities are more certain than any apparent realities.” (Bates, Matthew W. 2017. Salvation by Allegiance Alone. p.19.)

The author of Hebrews goes on to tell of the responses that people of God performed, demonstrating their faith.
They saw what God had done in the past; they knew he is a promise-keeper, and by faith committed themselves to him.

Faith is observed by our obedience to him, particularly in difficult circumstances.

Personally, I have found that trying to understand God and his ways before taking this step of faith, rarely results in believing him.

At 70+ years old, your time is short.
Take a step.... he's given you reasons to believe.

Rob

 

[Mike B]

Faith is observed by our obedience to him, particularly in difficult circumstances.

Fully agree.

Eleven of the twelve apostles died horrible deaths..stoned, hung, crucified, beheaded...none
of it pretty. Each could have saved their life by renouncing Jesus, yet they did not recant and
were killed as a result.

If you've been preaching a lie, you're not going to let someone chop off your head by defending
it. These men walked with Jesus throughout His ministry, were with Him when He died, and with Him
after His resurrection. The deaths of the eleven apostles are also well documented by the historians
of the time.

Jesus was back in Heaven; they had no motivation to lie...but they did have motivation to preach
the Gospel, and to hold steadfast, to the death, of what they witnessed with their own eyes.