Hymns Vs. Praise & Worship

[Molly]

 

[Kiffin]

Gordon said,

If there is not preaching from the pulpit you can be sure Jesus Christ has no part in that church.

Amen! I think the perfect form for a Worship service is found in Nehemiah 8:2-8 where there was Praise, Reading of the Word and Exposition of the Word in worship. The Word of God is central in worship and I wonder if there is true worship where Preaching and Teaching are absent. Jesus made it clear we are to Worship in SPIRIT and in TRUTH which implies a doctrinal grounding that is impossible without Preaching and Teaching.

Many contemporary churches have 45 minute singing, 15 minute sermon and some do not read Scripture, do not make Scripture the center point of sermons, and some segregate God‘s people into a Contemporary Worship service and a Traditional service. The Body of Christ is not built up through music, or over emotionalism but through the teaching and the preaching of the Word of God. There are no shortcuts that are effective. A great book on this subject is Ashamed of the Gospel: When the Church Becomes like the World by Dr. John MacArthur

 

[C.R. Gordon]

Kiffin,
good stuff from MacArthur...GREAT STUFF!

Martin Luther said:
"The highest form of worhsip is the preaching of God's word."

[ January 30, 2003, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: C.R. Gordon ]

 

[Sherrie]

Well preaching the word does not always have to be the focus on Sundays. It can be everyday of the week anywhere.

I think your context of it means to go out into the world and preach the word to everyone. Nothing says it has to be limited to a building or specific time. It is suppose to be all the time. Why rely on that to be your worship only? Sharing the gospel with those that may not have heard it is preaching the word. I love when the Pastor preaches. But nothing in that Bible says its just at 10:45 a:m to 12:00 p:m. It can be anywhere anytime.

And singing God praises can be worshipping the Lord. Bible Study has always lead me to have a much more better relationship with God than listening to a man stand on a pulpet and lecture for an hour or so.

In Jesus time people asked Jesus questions as He went along talking to them.

Sherrie

[ January 30, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]

 

[All about Grace]

C.R.: Your liberal idea is why the church is dying

Which "church" would that be? A local church? The "universal" church? Churches that do things differently than you? What church are you talking about? Such a statement kind of flies in the face of the whole "gates of Hell shall not prevail" teaching of Jesus.

C.R.: People don't want to hear the word preached properly and exogetically

I have preached and listend to several different styles of preaching, but I have yet to hear an EXOGETICAL one

C.R.: If there is not preaching from the pulpit you can be sure Jesus Christ has no part in that church.

Are you now speaking in behalf of Jesus?

I sure hope Paul had a portable pulpit with Him or otherwise He was flying solo.

Kiffin: I think the perfect form for a Worship service is found in Nehemiah 8:2-8 where there was Praise, Reading of the Word and Exposition of the Word in worship

Should it also include reading the Law aloud from daybreak to noon while the people are standing, the lifting of hands, bowing with our faces to the ground, other ministers instructing the listeners during the reading, weeping, the enjoying of choice foods and sweet drinks, and giving to the poor?

Kiffin: Many contemporary churches have 45 minute singing, 15 minute sermon and some do not read Scripture, do not make Scripture the center point of sermons

Do you have some data to support this claim? I know for example that Rick Warren preaches 45-55 minutes on Sunday and that his sermons include lots of Scripture.

Kiffin: some segregate God‘s people into a Contemporary Worship service and a Traditional service

If preaching/teaching is central (which I agree it should be), why is this a problem?

 

[redwhitenblue]

In my church the praise and worship time is equally effective as the preaching/teaching time. We've had people come forward for salvation before the preaching ever began because the HS was so powerful in the praise time. I don't think the Holy Spirit favors the preaching time over the praise, I think we just tend to stiffle what the Holy Spirit might be doing because we think it should go a certain way.

Just my thoughts.

Karen

 

[PGR Preacherboy]

I would very strongly choose hymns. If you look at the backgrounds of rock music in general, and almost all of the popular praise/worship type songs, you will find some highly questionable things. Romans 14 and I Corinthians 8 both seem to indicate that if there is any chance that our actions could lead a weak brother astray- such as into rock music and all of the evil associated with it- then we should carefully avoid them. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeh, lest I make my brother to offend. I understand that Paul is dealing with a particular issue here, but the passage also gives us a principle that applies even though that particular issue is no longer a problem.

 

[Refreshed]

While songs might not be inappropriate for a service, we do have an example (the only one explicit in scripture) of a gathering of the brethren, and what happened there. No music is mentioned, but the preaching was legendary.

Acts 20:7-12.

Jason

 

[Dr. Bob]

Appreciated everyone's effort to help Jonathan see the error of his way is lauding music and denigrating preaching.

"By the foolishness of singing" is not the bible method of proclamation of the Gospel, is it.

Nor is the little foolish ditties that come in the guise of "praise and worship music", of which most are neither praise or worship . . and some are not much in the way of music either!

Everybody condemns "Elevator Music" (I have some playing on my cd as I type). I call the modern travesty that passes for music in my church "7-11 Music".

7 words, and sung 11 times through.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
1. In fact, I would love to find a church with NO preaching from the pulpit, just all singing and praying and praising and reading the Word of God.

2. Now preaching has it's place, but I would prefer it not happen on Sunday mornings during our church service.

3. This is all just a personal opinion though, I'm not basing this on any scriptures other then the fact that we are never told to have preaching during our church services, probably partly because the entire church format was so radically different.

As for hymns vs. praise & Worship, Ben summed up my position perfectly.

1. Then it wouldn't be a church. It would just be a concert.

2. According to Scripture, it converts the lost and edifies the saved.

3. If it is just your oppinion, why would you start a church on that? Btw, preaching is a command for pastors during the church service. Paul told Timothy to "Preach the Word" (hey, that is a catchy name). The purpose of his writing to Timothy to begin with was so that he might know how to conduct himself in the house of God.

Now, you don't really find a command to sing in church.

 

[av1611jim]

I cast my (vote, preference, opinion, etc.) for hymns, cuz I like to sing about Him. I have two Hymn books in my home and we sing often. Since I signed onto this board "lo these many months ago" I have honestly TRIED to see what the big deal was about this CCM stuff and these falsely so-called praise and worship songs. (I'm told that if you look up the root of the word for worship you will find the same root for PROSTRATE. The similarity is uncanny. Folks hooting, waving they hands, shouting, singing repetitiously, ain't worship. You ought to be on yer face before a KING.) So for the last few weeks I have earnestly listened to an CCM station in my area. It is called the "NETWORK OF PRAISE". There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE twixt that junk than the local TOP 40 station. Sorry folks, I tried it. As I stated in my first posts in other threads, "That dog won't hunt and he stinks like he found a skunk." (To coin a phrase)(at least that was the point I was tryin' to get out there.)


Next. No preaching? Ok. Yer welcome to your opinion. Many politicians also have opinions. Don't mean nuthing though.
1 Cor. 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to PREACH the gospel,..."
vs 18 "For the PREACHING of the Croos is to them that perish foolishness:..."
vs 21 " For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it PLEASED GOD by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe."
vs 23 "but we PREACH Christ crucified, ..."
1 Cor 2:4 "And my speech and my PREACHING was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit and power:"


That ain't me telling you, it's right there in GOD'S book, if you want an opinion. BTW, I will take GOD'S opinion anyday.
Jim

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by C.R. Gordon:
Jonathan, I do hope that was a joke.

#1 Jesus Christ/Scripture DEMAND that the word be preached. (2 Tim. 4:1-2) It's not a suggestion.

You're right it isn't a suggestion, but I still don't think that it must be done every Sunday morning or the sun will stop. If you read Acts virtually all of the preaching is done to the unsaved. And when Paul mentions preaching in the Epistles, once again it is almost always talking about the unsaved or just a general "preach the word all the time" type thing. Plus, it never says from where the preaching is to be done. If someone wants to stand up and preach something right from their pew that would be fine. Anyway, I should have said that I would not have anyone do a prepared sermon every week. If someone had something that God laid on their hearts to share, by all means I'd love to hear it(Once again, it wouldn't have to be from a pulpit, though they would probably have to be up front just so everyone could hear them). If a Missionary was visiting I'd want to hear him speak! But a set, 30 minute sermon, I could do without on a Sunday morning. And of course I would have a huge amount of reading of The Word, and if someone had something to say about it, speak up!! But once again, I wouldn't have a prepared sermon. I don't see the precedence in Scriptures, unless someone has a verse that I missed. I just don't see why we stick preaching on a Sunday morning and say that it must be done then because the Scriptures say so(Which they don't).

#2 Your liberal idea is why the church is dying.
People don't want to hear the word preached properly and exogetically. You sound like the people in 2 tim 4:3-4

I must say that is the first time I've ever been called liberal.

I strongly disagree with your assertion that the church is dying. What you see as "dying" is really something that I have no part of, and that is summed up perfectly well in this quote:
</font>

• "Oh yeah, I got a beef with the fence-sitters
  tiers among the wheat, the cop-outs, the quitters
  Cut from the branch fruitless, no good,
  Only one use and that's firewood
  Pay no mind to the generation line
  Forsake your sect and be color blind
  The problem's not Hollywood, the problem's not Washington
  The problem's a weak divided church of schizmed christians"</font>

That, my friend, is not a problem I corroborate. The church is suffering from this problem of "fence-sitting," but it will prevail. IMO, this is currently the 2nd biggest problem the church has right now, but the church has overcome bigger and it will overcome this one. As for me being like the people of 2 Timothy 4:3-4:
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
Ummm, I don't get it. You have either misunderstood me or blindly judged me. As you have seen, I am quite capable of defending what I believe, and I think my doctrine is quite sound, albeit incomplete. If you can show me otherwise, then I would be happy to correct myself.

If there is not preaching from the pulpit you can be sure Jesus Christ has no part in that church.

I'd love to hear the Scriptural reference for this. I searched the Bible for "pulpit," but couldn't find anything. However, since this is such a strong statement, I'm sure I must have missed something. More "heresy" from me, I don't like the pulpit. I think it puts a barrier between the speaker and the listeners that inhibits communication, it almost forces the speaker to talk "down" to people, and any proficient public speaker will tell you that is bad thing. I dare anyone to find a Scripure that says that I'm wrong.

Posted by Preach The Word:
1. Then it wouldn't be a church. It would just be a concert.

Why not?

2. According to Scripture, it converts the lost and edifies the saved.

Correct, however I never said I wouldn't have any preaching at all(or more specifically using the verse you're talking about prophesying). It's just that I wouldn't have a prepared sermon every (or many) Sunday morning(s).

3. If it is just your opinion, why would you start a church on that? Btw, preaching is a command for pastors during the church service. Paul told Timothy to "Preach the Word" (hey, that is a catchy name). The purpose of his writing to Timothy to begin with was so that he might know how to conduct himself in the house of God.

A more precise term I should have used was preference, not opinion. Reread my original post and maybe you'll catch what I was talking about. From what I can find, Timothy is the only place where the preaching is implied as happening in the church(And the one part in Acts that Refreshed mentioned where the man fell asleep). Hmmm. It requires more thought. My thinking at the moment is that I still think that my original premise is perfectly acceptable in not having a prepared sermon. Of course preaching could be done, but it would be something that was based more on how God was moving people, not an every week has to be done type of thing. If someone felt that God was moving them to say something before the church, then by all means.

Thanks Sherrie!

If something ever happens I'll be sure to make a post or send a PM.

Dr.Bob, I respect your opinion as much as anyone I read online, but I wasn't particularly trying to laud music or denigrate preaching. I was just making a remark on the how I would like something to be done and how I don't think that we are told to do it the way it is currently being done. As for 7-11 music, I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Anyway, I certainly want to hear more responses. God bless,

~JD
[Edited some formatting and spelling]

[ February 01, 2003, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: JonathanDT ]

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
...I'm told that if you look up the root of the word for worship you will find the same root for PROSTRATE. The similarity is uncanny. Folks hooting, waving they hands, shouting, singing repetitiously, ain't worship. You ought to be on yer face before a KING....

And Praise has the same root as "to celebrate," "to make a show," "to boast," "thus to be (clamorously) foolish." To borrow a phrase, "Folks, being quite, still, low key, isn't praise. You ought to be clamoring foolishly, celebrating, boasting about yer GOD."

We are told to both praise AND worship, what an amazing God, two totally different modes of giving our adoration to him, but both so incredibly beautiful.

So for the last few weeks I have earnestly listened to an CCM station in my area. It is called the "NETWORK OF PRAISE". There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE twixt that junk than the local TOP 40 station....

To your ear. But that's ok, God hears everything perfectly. The music was made for him and those of us humans who enjoy it. Since we both know the difference, I believe that is all that truly matters.

Next. No preaching? Ok. Yer welcome to your opinion. Many politicians also have opinions. Don't mean nuthing though.
1 Cor. 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to PREACH the gospel,..."
vs 18 "For the PREACHING of the Croos is to them that perish foolishness:..."
vs 21 " For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it PLEASED GOD by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe."
vs 23 "but we PREACH Christ crucified, ..."
1 Cor 2:4 "And my speech and my PREACHING was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit and power:"

That ain't me telling you, it's right there in GOD'S book, if you want an opinion. BTW, I will take GOD'S opinion anyday.
Jim

Read the post above this for my response, it's too long to retype here. In a nutshell, I don't think that these verses say that we must have a prepared sermon preached from the pulpit on Sunday mornings.
~JD

 

[Pete]

Dr. Bob,

"7-11 Music".

7 words, and sung 11 times through.

Great description mate, I'll have to borrow that one

Told mum, she loved it. Now THAT is a recommendation

Pete

[ February 01, 2003, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Titus2_1 ]

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
I call the modern travesty that passes for music in my church "7-11 Music".

7 words, and sung 11 times through.

Let's see... how about I Have Decided to Follow Jesus. That is like 6-3-9-6-8-9. "No turning back" goes 6 times plus 2 for each additional verse.

Just As I Am... man! I have heard those last 7 words repeated at least 18 times on some occasions I recall.

There are a lot of others out of those hymnbooks that repeat phrases mutltiple times... Holy, Holy, Holy, When the Roll is Called Up Yonder [questionable theology besides repetitive phrasing], Send the Light, There is a Fountain...

So-- do you include the above examples in your suggested criticism of repetitions? And whether you do or do not, what is the basis of your objections?