Hyms

[Eyes on Jesus]

I have heard before by someone that some of the hyms in the hym books came from old bar songs, could anyone tell me if this is true, and which songs they would be?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Some hymn tunes came from folk melodies. These were commonly known to the people.

PERHAPS some of these tunes were used in bars. Who can say? But many of these tunes had good christian words put to them and, since everyone already knew the tune, they were added to church music.

Sing with me "We gather together to ask the Lord's blessing. He chastens and hastens His will to make known". Okay, this was a common Dutch folk tune. It also had words to the tune that were bawdy. "I once met a girl and her name was Matilda, she hugged like a bear and she looked like one too".

Now, I've heard stories of bar songs that were 100% drinking songs being brought (with new words, of course) into a church. But I've never had that proven. Old wives' tale, methinks. Probably because of the common use of folk tunes in all settings, including perhaps a tavern.

 

[Istherenotacause]

Does this mean we can sing the words of Amazing Grace to the tune of Rock-n-Roll Hoochie-Coo?

 

[rsr]

Like Dr. Bob, you and Dr. Bob, I've heard this too, but without any evidence.

I ran across these articles, on a United Methodist Church site, which categorically denies that the Wesleys (and Luther) adapted drinking songs for hymns:

Debunking the Wesley Tavern Song Myth

Did the Wesleys Really Use Drinking Song Tunes for Their Hymns?

The misconception stems from confusion over a musical term — bar form. In German literature and music of the Middle Ages, "Bar" was a poem consisting of three or more stanzas. Each stanza was divided into two Stollen (section a) and one Abgesang (section b), which yielded a form of AAB. The term "bar form" is commonly used today to refer to any poem or musical composition in this AAB form, or any variation of bar form, such as AABA. A number of Luther's hymns and tunes used this form, including "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God."

While it is impossible to rule out the appearance of an adapted drinking song tune in any of the many hymnals now around, I think it would be rare.

On the other hand, if you're talking about "The Star Spangled Banner" ...

 

[Deacon]

Does this mean we can sing the words of Amazing Grace to the tune of Rock-n-Roll Hoochie-Coo?

That reminds me of a time in my youth. We had a Youth Group contest to see who could come up with a new tune to "Amazing Grace".

The "winner" used the tune to "Take me out to the Ball Game".

Rob

 

[Istherenotacause]

I've heard many a drunk sing Amazing Grace, but I sort of brushed it off. I know that's a crude example, but many songs we have in our hymnals could very well have been sung in many a bar room.

 

[Artimaeus]

I like Amazing Grace sung to the tune of "Ghost Riders in the Sky". That is the only song I can sort of play on the guitar (at least I used to be able to). I had heard that some hymns were tunes from common songs and were "brought over" to hymns with Christian words. I also assume that some of these songs were also sung in taverns but I had not heard that they were specifically JUST bar songs.

 

[Major B]

I have heard contemporary Christian groups sing "Celebrate" by Kool and the Gang with Christian words ("Holy Ghost Party Tonight!")

I have also heard someone derisively sing: "Our hope is built on nothing less than Scofield's Notes and Scripture Press..."

However, the great hymns that last hundreds or thousands of years (sometimes with different music) come from a combination of:

(1) Good Theology (as Spurgeon pointed out often, the theology of Charles Wesley's hymns was far better than the theology of Wesley sermons)

(2) Depth of Christian experience, revealing a heart for God in a life full of pain--if you have read John Newton's life, "wretch like me" takes on a whole new meaning; if you know the tragic circumstances of William Cowper's life, "There is A Fountain Filled With Blood" really resonates.

(3) A time of revival--there is nothing like the Holy Spirit MANIFESTING His Presence (which is always there anyway, see Omnipresence) to make believers sing a new song.

 

[Alcott]

When alone, I sometimes sing Amazing Grace to the tune of "House of the Rising Sun." And then I sometimes change the words from HRS to something variable, then end the stanza with "..the house of the Risen Son."

But I honestly don't know if have heard that before, or whether it just "came to me," since I don't really listen to much music of any kind. Has anyone heard a recording like that? (just so I might know)

 

[Major B]

Singing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "House of the Rising Sun" was SOP (Standard Operating Procedure for all you civilians) during the Jesus movement days, and when I first got saved in the mid-70s, it was still heard fairly often.

 

[Ben W]

The Salvation Army used to use tunes from pub songs all the time. A popular one which I cant recall what it is called now comes from the pub song "Champagne Charlie"

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Major B:
"Our hope is built on nothing less than Scofield's Notes and Scripture Press..."

That just made my night! Thanks for a good chuckle. We should add that to the Humor Forum!

 

[Istherenotacause]

Originally posted by Major B:
I have heard contemporary Christian groups sing "Celebrate" by Kool and the Gang with Christian words ("Holy Ghost Party Tonight!")

I have also heard someone derisively sing: "Our hope is built on nothing less than Scofield's Notes and Scripture Press..."

However, the great hymns that last hundreds or thousands of years (sometimes with different music) come from a combination of:

(1) Good Theology (as Spurgeon pointed out often, the theology of Charles Wesley's hymns was far better than the theology of Wesley sermons)

(2) Depth of Christian experience, revealing a heart for God in a life full of pain--if you have read John Newton's life, "wretch like me" takes on a whole new meaning; if you know the tragic circumstances of William Cowper's life, "There is A Fountain Filled With Blood" really resonates.

(3) A time of revival--there is nothing like the Holy Spirit MANIFESTING His Presence (which is always there anyway, see Omnipresence) to make believers sing a new song.

Major B, you post like a man who's "Saved, Serving, and Sure!"

I was only kidding when I made the post regarding Amazing Grace to the tune of anything to do with r-n-r.

The Lord is everpresent/ Omnipresent, but He sure lets us know He's around at the "right" time!

 

[Pete]

Re: Amazing Grace to tune of House of the Rising Sun..

Mum always tells me the story of when one of my brothers was a teenager and sang Watts' Alas And Did My Saviour Bleed to that tune for a homeless mens' group. She said the men were enjoying it, until someone came along and told my brother "YOU CANT DO THAT!"

Going back about 6 or 7 years ago I heard Amazing Grace done that way at a Church I was going to at the time. It was done flat out with full band and sounded terrible. I sat down but really should have walked out. Sadly they did the first verse a capella to the real tune after that and I went back a few more times.

2 years or so ago I did Alas And Did.. with my brother at another Church, just him and myself singing it with me picking softly on acoustic guitar. Not up to standard of the real thing, but still went down ok there

(Had to edit, got a song or 2 mixed up

)

Pete

[ May 14, 2003, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Battlestar Acrostica ]

 

[Daisy]

I always assumed it was the other way around, that the bar songs were parodies of the hymns.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

That's what I thought too Daisy.

Laurenda

 

[Sherrie]

Eyes on Jesus....I heard that too. And one time I searched on the internet, and found what rsr put up, and a bunch of opposite ones. I think it just depends on who you talk to.

Sherrie