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Hyper-Calvinism and it's beliefs

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Allan

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continued:

And here is a Presbitarian site linking to this article by Sherman Isbell which speaks of "The doctrine of the Westminster standards respecting the free offer of the gospel, compared with Herman Hoeksema's reconstruction of covenant theology"
Contemporary Antinomianism

After surveying Calvin, Rollock and Rutherford, our understanding of what they have said may be sharpened by considering a different perspective. In the twentieth century, Herman Hoeksema (1898-1964), a Dutch American pastor and theological professor for the Protestant Reformed Churches, has radically reconstructed Reformed covenant theology. When we refer to Hoeksema's reconstruction as Antinomianism, we are not indicating a denial that the law of God is a rule of life to inform believers of their duty. Rather, we employ the term used by Rutherford and "Rabbi" Duncan to designate an error opposite to Arminianism: 1) A misconstruction of divine sovereignty as displacing man's responsible agency, so that 2) teaching about human agency is viewed as a concession to moral ability in the unregenerate. 3) The view that "All externals are useless or indifferent, since the Spirit alone gives life."(25)

Unlike the covenant theology of the Westminster standards, which conceives of the covenants as means to bring men to life, Hoeksema argued that covenant could not be a means to an end. Instead, he viewed covenant as the eternal relationship among the persons in the Trinity. Hoeksema condemned concepts of the covenant which centered upon things which would be done in time and in the creation. Even the covenant of redemption, that eternal engagement by the Son to procure salvation for the elect, is deemed unworthy of God. "And he is the God of the covenant, not according to a decree or according to an agreement or pact, but according to his very divine nature and essence."(26) Covenant is said to be a necessary feature of the divine nature, and men enjoy friendship with God by this same covenant life being extended to them in a derivative way.

Hoeksema's concern is that God's sovereignty is jeopardized if covenant did not exist as a necessary feature of the divine nature before it operated with reference to men. Otherwise, man would take precedence over God. Hoeksema insists that God could not enter into covenant with man unless covenant was already part of God's life, and that therefore covenant must be found eternally within the Trinity. He reasons that if everything in creation has its reason in who God is, then it must be that God's covenant with man presupposes an eternal covenant life within the Godhead: "He himself is in his eternal divine covenant life the ultimate and eternal and only reason for all that takes place in time and that exists eternally."(27)

Unhappily, Hoeksema, in defining covenant, does not take his starting point from the Bible's wealth of references to covenant, and the significant place which the Scriptures give to the responsible agency of men in covenant with God. Hoeksema begins rather with the assumption that anything in time, including covenants, must be structured in a way that would not allow a large place to man's agency, or to the means employed in the creation, lest this would threaten divine sovereignty. However, it needs to be asked whether Scripture itself says anything at all to the effect that covenant belongs to the nature and essence of the Godhead. In fact, Hoeksema lays aside the extensive biblical teaching about human agency in connection with God's covenant, in order to bring the covenant concept into line with his unwarranted speculation about an eternal covenant life in God. The Westminster standards, on the other hand, give due place to the requirements and conditions laid upon men in the covenants, while also displaying the harmony of human agency with biblical teaching about divine sovereignty.

Central in Hoeksema's doctrine of the covenant is his insistence that covenant cannot be a means to an end in history, a way to reach salvation. Instead, the covenant is itself the end, the enjoyment of communion with God. He rejects the idea that the covenant "is the way along which the salvation of the elect is established."(28) Whereas the Westminster standards teach that there is an administration of the covenant through the means of grace, in order to draw men into the kingdom or to interest them in Christ, Hoeksema will have none of this: "The covenant also is not a way to a certain end, is no means to the attainment of a certain purpose, is not the manner wherein we are saved. It is itself the highest purpose, the end, the eternal bliss, unto which all things tend and must tend."(29) Hoeksema wants to avoid relating the covenant to man's agency in an historical process, as if this would abridge divine sovereignty.

Hoeksema pursues his reconstruction of Reformed covenant theology by condemning the covenant of works formulation. The covenant of works speaks of placing Adam on probation, and of a promise which held out the prospect of life. Hoeksema objects that this makes the covenant a means for attaining something higher than Adam had before. Hoeksema has another explanation of the communion which Adam enjoyed with God at creation. Hoeksema says that Adam walked in the covenant life which had already existed in the life of the Godhead. This, Hoeksema believes, will give the proper priority to God. Hoeksema rejects the teaching in the Westminster standards (as in Shorter Catechism 12) that the covenant of works was entered into subsequent to creation, as a special act of providence. Hoeksema protests that this would make the covenant incidental, brought in to secure for Adam something he did not already possess, thereby reducing the covenant to a means to an end.

Hoeksema goes on to say that there has always been only one covenant, not a covenant of works and later a covenant of grace. The covenant under which unfallen Adam enjoyed friendship with God is the same covenant into which the Lord brings sinners today when he gives them communion with himself. The covenant of redemption is likewise discarded, because even this covenant between the Father and Son, entered into from eternity, would bring the covenant life into subservience to the accomplishment of salvation, and it cannot be that the covenant life in God could be a subordinate conception, or a means even to such an end as the accomplishment and application of redemption.

Notes
(25) William Young, "Antinomianism," in The Encyclopedia of Christianity, vol. 1, ed. Edwin H. Palmer, (Wilmington, Delaware: National Foundation for Christian Education, 1964), p. 272.
(26) Herman Hoeksema, Reformed Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Reformed Free Publishing Association, 1966), p. 319. We may note in passing that Hoeksema gave another reason for condemning the concept of a covenant of redemption between God the Son according to his divine nature and God the Father. He considered that the classic Reformed concept amounted to an undue subordination within the Trinity, endangering the Son's equality of nature with the Father. These grounds cited for rejecting the covenant of redemption were already well answered: Rutherford, Covenant of Life, pp. 303, 310-11; John Owen, "Federal Transactions Between the Father and the Son," in An Exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews, ed. William H. Goold (Edinburgh: Johnstone and Hunter, 1854-55), 2:86-87; Hugh Martin, The Atonement: In Its Relations to the Covenant, the Priesthood, the Intercession of our Lord (1870, reprint ed., Edinburgh: Knox Press, 1976), pp. 44-45.
(27) Hoeksema, Reformed Dogmatics, p. 297.
(28) Ibid., p. 318.
(29) Ibid., p. 322.

Go to the next installment:
The Preached Covenant: Part IV
 
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Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
More on #3 on Phil's list supposedly being equivalent to Monergism's "that God does not command all men everywhwere to repent."

John H. told you that he is not comfortable using "the offer" concept . Certainly John H. does not equate his terminological preference to be the same as believing that God does not command all men everywhere to repent ." You are really off-base here .
No, you are the one adding to what he stated. He didn't say he was "uncomfortable using 'the offer' concept", that is your exagerted interpretion to what he plainly stated.

He said "with the possible exception that we believe the gospel is a universal command, not simply an offer. " He doesn't negate the view but would have it clarified better.

Secondly, why do you keep stating things like "supposedly being equivalent to Monergism's" when they in FACT state they ARE THE SAME.

Try contacting them and setting THEM straight. I'm sure you can correct their errors and get them to recant their statements.
 

Rippon

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Allan said:
Rippon,
There is nothing that I can say that will convence you the two list are similar. Even letters Monergism itself who states they ARE IN FACT THE SAME, you still feel the list THEY put together (according to their understanding) and Phils have no correlation what-so-ever, don't believe them.

[ /quote ]

They are as different as day and night . Look at my comments and regarding what you thought were tie-ins and see if you can come to grips with the pronounced differences .
 

Allan

Active Member
J.D. said:
Yes, John Hendrix. He has done a great work for the Lord and the field of theology. As far as I'm concerned, his site has become the go-to place to understand Calvinism and reformed theology in general. I think that while John may label someone a hyper-calvinist, he does not roundly condemn them with a broad brush like Phil Johnson does. Some people are zealous to rekindle a war that is over, like the old Spurgeon vs Hyper-Calvinist dispute.

Some of the greatest Bible teachers and preachers were full Gospel Standard hyper-calvinists. Huntington and Gadsby come to mind. They wrote some great stuff. To this day, Gadsby's catechism is my favorite. Check it out here:

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/gcat.htm
I agree, and that is one main reason I sought THEIR opinion of the two lists and if they were of the same thing. They or rather he (John Hendrix) stated yes, "As far as I can tell, I do not see any contradiction between what Phil has listed or what we have listed. They are essentially saying the same thing."

Then he adds "It is very possible that some persons are simply inconsistent in their beliefs so may take on one or more of the characteristics of a HC, but the two lists, I believe failry accurately represent what a HC is. "

I want to further state this is not to say if a person holds to some aspects of a Hyper-view that automatically constitutes them as a Hyper-C, no more than if a person holds to one or more points of the TULIP makes them a Calvinist.

These were given to help those who aren't familiar with Hyper views to know what they are and not just lable a person who is Calvinistic a Hyper. BUT, it is also placed here to help those of the Calvinistic persuasion to see what consitutes a hyper viewpoint in contract to what Historical Calvinism has held to.

Thus a Calvinist could have Hyper tendencies in or on a particular view but not resolutely be a Hyper-Cal and therefore I place this here to give balance to both sides to re-evaluate what they understand as a Hyper view.
 

Allan

Active Member
Allan said:
Rippon,
There is nothing that I can say that will convence you the two list are similar. Even letters Monergism itself who states they ARE IN FACT THE SAME, you still feel the list THEY put together (according to their understanding) and Phils have no correlation what-so-ever, don't believe them.[/quote ]
Rippon said:
They are as different as day and night . Look at my comments and regarding what you thought were tie-ins and see if you can come to grips with the pronounced differences .
I think your wrong. Besides, it is not I who needs to come to grips here it is you. It is not I who say they are saying essentually the same thing and that the two list are fairly accurate representation of what a HC is. Monergism did. Convince them :) They said it, not me.

So I say again, why not do us all a favor and contact them yourself and set them straight. They have a great deal more understanding than I do in these areas and are known as well are reputable Calvinists in theology and practice, that is why I asked their opinions.

And they stated and I quote:
As far as I can tell, I do not see any contradiction between what Phil has listed or what we have listed. They are essentially saying the same thing. It is very possible that some persons are simply inconsistent in their beliefs so may take on one or more of the characteristics of a HC, but the two lists, I believe failry accurately represent what a HC is. "
 
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Rippon

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Rippon said:
I went through each example of what you think links one list with the other . And , surprise , there is no correlation .

I'll use 'P' for Phil's short list , and 'M' for Monergism's longer listing .

P#1 regarding the Gospel call doesn't apply to all who hear . You think that's the same thing as "no evangelization" on M. No , they're different .On P it doesn't say no evangelism , but pertains to those who hear it .

P #2 denies duty faith . You think that is related to M which speaks of "having assurance of one's election before election and faith" .Well , that's a no-go . There is absolutely no connection between the two . I figured you were not sure about what duty-faith was since you didn't understand JD when he said he believed in it .

P #3 refers to no offer . You try to connect that with M's not commanding all men everywhere to repent . No Allan . They are not the same thing .Telling men to repent is not the same as "offering" them grace .

P # 4 is referencing no common grace . M's vague statement about God's grace works for the betterment of all men is not necessarily the same thing . I doubt that established Reformed scholars would see any connection there either .

P # 5 speaks of God having no love for the non-elect . But you try and foist a connection with M's "that the number of the elect may be known by you" . There is certainly no linkage here at all .

So far I see no kinship between the respective lists . Nada , none , zilch .

Deal with this specifically Allan .I looked at each example you listed as a hook-ups between the two lists and came up dry . A = E ? No , I'm afraid not .
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
Deal with this specifically Allan .I looked at each example you listed as a hook-ups between the two lists and came up dry . A = E ? No , I'm afraid not .
Refer to post #85, ..period. :thumbs:
 

Rippon

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Allan said:
These were given to help those who aren't familiar with Hyper views to know what they are and not just lable a person who is Calvinistic a Hyper. BUT, it is also placed here to help those of the Calvinistic persuasion to see what consitutes a hyper viewpoint in contract to what Historical Calvinism has held to.

Yes , I'm sure a guy who has only heard of Calvinism in the last 7 or 8 years is going to explain to us poor deluded Calvinists what Hyper-Calvinism is . Come off it .

And make up your mind . Do you now think an historical view of Hyper-Calvinism is okay ? You were against that in your OP .
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
Yes , I'm sure a guy who has only heard of Calvinism in the last 7 or 8 years is going to explain to us poor deluded Calvinists what Hyper-Calvinism is . Come off it .

And make up your mind . Do you now think an historical view of Hyper-Calvinism is okay ? You were against that in your OP .
Rippon, the problem is with you.

Secondly, you misunderstood the OP and ran with it.
NOTE:
This is set forth to give to better understanding of not only the differences between historic and hyper
meaning the differences between historic Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism.
Do you understand now?
 
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Rippon

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Allan said:
No, you are the one adding to what he stated. He didn't say he was "uncomfortable using 'the offer' concept", that is your exagerted interpretion to what he plainly stated.

He said "with the possible exception that we believe the gospel is a universal command, not simply an offer. " He doesn't negate the view but would have it clarified better.

Secondly, why do you keep stating things like "supposedly being equivalent to Monergism's" when they in FACT state they ARE THE SAME.

Saying they are the same does not make them the same Allan . Your efforts at trying to connect specific passages from each and pronouncing them equivalent was futile .

Again ,look at #3 of Phil's list : "denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ , salvation , or mercy to the non-elect ( or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal ."

You think that is a perfect match for the following of Monergism's list :"that God does not command everyone to repent"

The two proposions are distinctly different . You are the one who said these two ( not to mention your other flawed match-ups ) were compatible . John H. did not say so .You came forward and selected some propositions from both lists and tried to glue them together . But your work was patchy and incomplete . Your hands got sticky all for nothing .

Again , I believe that all people need to repent and believe the gospel . Christ commanded it . It is the duty of all who hear to obey . Yet I also know that none will do that without the Holy Spirit working in their hearts . They will not comply with their native inabilities .

Since I believe that all are to repent , believe and follow the command of Christ regarding this -- how can I be linked with something you call the same yet is so different . Phil's #3 has nothing to do with Monergism's proposition .
 

Rippon

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Allan said:
I would like to set the record here for what 'truly' constitutes a Hyper view in contrast to the 'historical' view.

Straight from your mouth ( or keystrokes ) .
 

Rippon

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Allan said:
continued:

And here is a Presbitarian site linking to this article by Sherman Isbell which speaks of "The doctrine of the Westminster standards respecting the free offer of the gospel, compared with Herman Hoeksema's reconstruction of covenant theology"

This article has absolutely nothing to do with Hyper-Calvinism . Mr. Isbell is dealing with his differences with Hoeksema's regarding the Covenant .( BTW , it's 'Presbyterian' , not 'Presbitarian'.
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
Saying they are the same does not make them the same Allan . Your efforts at trying to connect specific passages from each and pronouncing them equivalent was futile .

Again ,look at #3 of Phil's list : "denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ , salvation , or mercy to the non-elect ( or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal ."

You think that is a perfect match for the following of Monergism's list :"that God does not command everyone to repent"

The two proposions are distinctly different . You are the one who said these two ( not to mention your other flawed match-ups ) were compatible . John H. did not say so .You came forward and selected some propositions from both lists and tried to glue them together . But your work was patchy and incomplete . Your hands got sticky all for nothing .

Again , I believe that all people need to repent and believe the gospel . Christ commanded it . It is the duty of all who hear to obey . Yet I also know that none will do that without the Holy Spirit working in their hearts . They will not comply with their native inabilities .

Since I believe that all are to repent , believe and follow the command of Christ regarding this -- how can I be linked with something you call the same yet is so different . Phil's #3 has nothing to do with Monergism's proposition .
You were asking for any correlation between the two lists. I gave some and whether or not 'my' rendition is correct is not your real problem (mine maybe) but 'your' main problem STILL is with Monergism and their statement:
As far as I can tell, I do not see any contradiction between what Phil has listed or what we have listed. They are essentially saying the same thing. It is very possible that some persons are simply inconsistent in their beliefs so may take on one or more of the characteristics of a HC, but the two lists, I believe failry accurately represent what a HC is.
So, as soon as you contact them and get them straightened out we can put this behind us.

But till then, the lists stand as that which defines fairly and accurately what represents an HC or one with HC tendencies toward certain aspects of their view(s).
 
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Rippon

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Allan said:
Now your being completely silly and obtuse.

Nothing silly about it Allan . You claimed I misunderstood your OP . I said that in it you claimed that you were not going to take an historical view of the subject . I quoted you . Now you object . So do you want to define hyper-Calvinism in historical terms , or not ? Take your pick .

( BTW , you should have used the contraction "you're" , not "your" in your -- [correct usage ] opening line .)
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
Nothing silly about it Allan . You claimed I misunderstood your OP . I said that in it you claimed that you were not going to take an historical view of the subject . I quoted you . Now you object . So do you want to define hyper-Calvinism in historical terms , or not ? Take your pick .
And unfortunately your the only person how doesn't understand it. Or maybe because you have no real argument you had to find something else.

Hold up - I never said I was not going to take a historical look at anything. Where did you get that??
Here is your quote:
I would like to set the record here for what 'truly' constitutes a Hyper view in contrast to the 'historical' view
Please show me where I said anything concerning 'not' looking at a historical anything.
( BTW , you should have used the contraction "you're" , not "your" in your -- [correct usage ] opening line .)
Got it :thumbs:
 
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Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
This article has absolutely nothing to do with Hyper-Calvinism . Mr. Isbell is dealing with his differences with Hoeksema's regarding the Covenant .( BTW , it's 'Presbyterian' , not 'Presbitarian'.
Yes it does :) It deals with the 'offer' of salvation being toward both the elect and non-elect. A view that HC's deny.
 

Bethelassoc

Member
Regardless if one website states it agrees with another, people will disagree with what calvinism means just like they'll argue the tenets of arminianism. I don't believe that the spurgeon dot org site was in collaboration with monergism dot com, so we only have one man's opinion that both sides agree. This does open the door for those on here to disagree with what one website states over another.

Either way, I think hyper calvinism is best labeled as an extreme. Even as pointed out by Mr. Johnson in his primer, we've defined our own criteria of what hyperism is, so we lack an historical understanding of where its boundaries lay. I believe a simple definition of it is absolutism, and man has no part in it.

David
 

Allan

Active Member
Bethelassoc said:
Regardless if one website states it agrees with another, people will disagree with what calvinism means just like they'll argue the tenets of arminianism. I don't believe that the spurgeon dot org site was in collaboration with monergism dot com, so we only have one man's opinion that both sides agree. This does open the door for those on here to disagree with what one website states over another.

Either way, I think hyper calvinism is best labeled as an extreme. Even as pointed out by Mr. Johnson in his primer, we've defined our own criteria of what hyperism is, so we lack an historical understanding of where its boundaries lay. I believe a simple definition of it is absolutism, and man has no part in it.

David
'
Actaully, I'm in the process of getting Phil at Spurgeon.com approval of the Monergism listing as well. I seriously doubt that he will disagree, but I am still asking for confirmation. I (and many others - most specifically Calvinists) would disagree with such a vague definition of absolutism, and man has no part in it. There is an abundance of information to show what HC is and where it is distintively different from the historically held Calvinistic view. Mr Johnson did not say "we have defined our own criteria" but just like monergism set their criteria up in accordance where the two views divide from the the historical perspective of Calvinsim.

The criteria of hyper is that which is not consistant with the historically held views of Calvinism. WHile it can not be set down as one simple defintion to fit all types of HC's a definition in deed can be brought about to identify them individually - and that is what Phil was meaning. Not only is it definable (though I agree anybody can take a good thing and turn it into a witch hunt) but it's prime and basic views have been withstood for the last 3 or 4 centuries. These are summed up in the two listings set forth. And it is set forth not by a Non-Cal's understanding (Like Dave Hunt) but by Cals who understand Calvinism much better than I do and that which is called HC.

But let me also state this if may, I do agree that Hyper-Calvinism is best labeled extreme but extreme in accordance with the historical view Calvinsim. A the lists help identify those who are or have HC tendencies.
 
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