• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Hyper-Calvinism and it's beliefs

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bethelassoc

Member
Allan said:
'
Actaully, I'm in the process of getting Phil at Spurgeon.com approval of the Monergism listing as well. I seriously doubt that he will disagree, but I am still asking for confirmation.

I don't believe that will sway the calvinists that already spoke on here even if both sides are in agreement. It depends on ones interpretation of John Calvin's writings as well as how they view scripture.

I (and many others - most specifically Calvinists) would disagree with such a vague definition of absolutism, and man has no part in it.

Let me clarify my vagueness. I was referring to absolutism in reference to Hyper calvinism. An example is Absolute Predestination, in which man has no part in his "salvation". It didn't take place while hearing a gospel message preached, after a message was preached, etc. He just is one of God's elect. He was born that way. Historic calvinists don't agree with an absolute view such as that.

I guess we could nitpick about OSAS, eternal security, but my focus for absolutism lies more in the man has no part, just like the extreme arminian view that man does all the foot work in getting saved/ God has no part.

There is an abundance of information to show what HC is and where it is distintively different from the historically held Calvinistic view. Mr Johnson did not say "we have defined our own criteria" but just like monergism set their criteria up in accordance where the two views divide from the the historical perspective of Calvinsim.

Of course there is a difference between the two systems. The problem at hand from what I understand when talking to calvinists is that they do redefine terms that don't coincide with what John Calvin penned in his writings. But does everyone fully understand what Calvin actually wrote?

The criteria of hyper is that which is not consistant with the historically held views of Calvinism. WHile it can not be set down as one simple defintion to fit all types of HC's a definition in deed can be brought about to identify them individually - and that is what Phil was meaning. Not only is it definable (though I agree anybody can take a good thing and turn it into a witch hunt) but it's prime and basic views have been withstood for the last 3 or 4 centuries. These are summed up in the two listings set forth. And it is set forth not by a Non-Cal's understanding (Like Dave Hunt) but by Cals who understand Calvinism much better than I do and that which is called HC.

Right. But like what was mentioned before in this thread, HC is an extreme view. It is taking (some, if not most) tenets of calvinism to an absolute view. Does every HC believe this way? No. Does every calvinist believe in the 5 points?..... Here's where the fighting takes place. I think there's as much inner debating about calvinism as there is with the C/A conflict.

But let me also state this if may, I do agree that Hyper-Calvinism is best labeled extreme but extreme in accordance with the historical view Calvinsim. A the lists help identify those who are or have HC tendencies.

Wouldn't it be extreme to arminianism as well? :) I think both sides of the C/A debate have extremes... even verging on heretical. I won't say that I have a clear understanding of HC, but I have studied denominations that hold to some of it's views, and it sure makes me search out the scriptures.

David
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Allan said:
And unfortunately your the only person ...

Got it :thumbs:

Unfortunately you don't have it . Your 'your' should be the contraction -- 'you're' .
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bethelassoc said:
I don't believe that will sway the calvinists that already spoke on here even if both sides are in agreement. It depends on ones interpretation of John Calvin's writings as well as how they view scripture.

[/quote ]

No , a Calvinists is one that puts the Scripture front-and-center . We don't have to do any backtracking to see whether or not we line-up with John Calvin's thought on a particular subject .This gets so tiresome to explain for millions of times .
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is so old ...




Bethelassoc said:
Of course there is a difference between the two systems. The problem at hand from what I understand when talking to calvinists is that they do redefine terms that don't coincide with what John Calvin penned in his writings. But does everyone fully understand what Calvin actually wrote?
David [/quote ]

I repeat , we Calvinists do not have to check up on what John Calvin wrote to believe what we believe . Your misunderstanding of Calvinism is a big handicap for you .The Bible is our Standard . But I guess it's hard for you to conceive how a Calvinist can be such without consulting John Calvin , huh ?
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It would be a hard task to round-up anyone who scores much of any score on Monergism's list . That hyper-Calvinist animal just might be mythological . ( With the possible exception of Outside the Camp folks and 5Solas ).

Allan , if you're ( a contraction meaning you are ) serious about wanting to find an historical view of Hyper-Calvinism you need to study The Gospel Standard Church . Look at their creed ( or rather , Confession ) . You'll notice their departure from true Calvinism in 7 or so Articles of Faith .

It's of no consequence if Phil and John H. say they agree with the list of the other , it will not alter the fact that the respective propositions have no bearing on the other . That's why I had scored some Hyper-points on Phil's list and 0% on Monergism . If there was any true kinship between 'P' and 'M' I would have had about the same score on each .You are so bent on harmonizing those two listings when there is no intersection to be had . There is no overlap . There is nothing in common .Your ( the correct spelling and usage ) examples of matches between the two were simply misfits .It's a case of comparing apples with artichokes .
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
It would be a hard task to round-up anyone who scores much of any score on Monergism's list . That hyper-Calvinist animal just might be mythological . ( With the possible exception of Outside the Camp folks and 5Solas ).

Allan , if you're ( a contraction meaning you are ) serious about wanting to find an historical view of Hyper-Calvinism you need to study The Gospel Standard Church . Look at their creed ( or rather , Confession ) . You'll notice their departure from true Calvinism in 7 or so Articles of Faith .

It's of no consequence if Phil and John H. say they agree with the list of the other , it will not alter the fact that the respective propositions have no bearing on the other . That's why I had scored some Hyper-points on Phil's list and 0% on Monergism . If there was any true kinship between 'P' and 'M' I would have had about the same score on each .You are so bent on harmonizing those two listings when there is no intersection to be had . There is no overlap . There is nothing in common .Your ( the correct spelling and usage ) examples of matches between the two were simply misfits .It's a case of comparing apples with artichokes .
As I have stated and many others in their researching HC, that the Gospel Standard Church is not the only HC, but the Protestant Reformed Churches are also accounted in that group, along with Primitive Baptists, and another group of two (if I remember off the top of my head rightly). HC is not a mytholoicagal animals but a very real one. However that refenence is usually made by those of the HC persuation who don't like the truth.

Again, the two lists are compatable and comparable and your the one who needs to clear up the contention with the Monergism. I simply am telling what a leading Calvinistic group (the go-to guys for Calvinism as JD puts it) states as a fairly accurate rendering of what an HC is. My list stands whether you think it is right or not, for one reason your the only one who really disagree's with the listing. As I said, it is you're problem not mine. This is something to help people know what constitutes HC according to poeple who know what the HC's believe and to give those of who are calvinistic something to help guage whether or not their views are historical or over-reaching and or extreme.
Remember I didn't make up the lists nor declare them the same and compatable, they did!

Hope your doing good. You're friend
Allan
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Allan said:
HC is not a mytholoicagal animals but a very real one. However that refenence is usually made by those of the HC persuation who don't like the truth.

You don't read ( or spell )very well . I said that one would be hard pressed to find any Hyper-Calvinist who scores any points on Monergism's list . I did not say that hyper-Calvinists do not exist .

"HC is not a mytholoicagal animals ..." ?! Have you been drinking again ?

You're going to extremes with your wrongly spelled words .Think things out a bit before you type .
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Allan said:
Again, the two lists are compatable and comparable and your the one who needs to clear up the contention with the Monergism. I simply am telling what a leading Calvinistic group (the go-to guys for Calvinism as JD puts it) states as a fairly accurate rendering of what an HC is. My list stands whether you think it is right or not, for one reason your the only one who really disagree's with the listing. As I said, it is you're problem not mine.

I am not the only one who can read plainly enough to see glaring differences between the two lists Allan . J.D. is another on the BB who can tell the difference . Others are busy just reading this thread and not participating . I am sure others will come forward to expose the fraud of "they both say the same thing ."

Allan :"My list stands" . What singular list are you speaking of ?

You didn't address the specifics I made in particular with the two lists . I would say your cross-referencing skills are woefully deficient .

So it is indeed "you're" problem , Buddy .
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Anyone who puts the Protestant Reformed Churches into the category of being hyper-Calvinistic is in error ( perhaps willful error ) . A champion of the Calvinistic cause -- John Gerstner , wrote the Forward to Engelsma's book on Hyper-Calvinism . He defended the PRC from Hyper-Calvinistic charges .

Gerstner was the mentor of R.C. Sproul . I had the pleasure of meeting both of these men . And I know some PRC folks also .
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
Anyone who puts the Protestant Reformed Churches into the category of being hyper-Calvinistic is in error ( perhaps willful error ) . A champion of the Calvinistic cause -- John Gerstner , wrote the Forward to Engelsma's book on Hyper-Calvinism . He defended the PRC from Hyper-Calvinistic charges .

Gerstner was the mentor of R.C. Sproul . I had the pleasure of meeting both of these men . And I know some PRC folks also .
My list of souces throughout this thread range from the Presby's , those of the website Puritans mind, John Hindrix (Monergism), and Phil Johnson (Spurgeon.com), and I"m pretty sure they know what they are talking about, especially when they are saying the same things. If you didn't notice, let me point out that they are all Calvinistic and not one sourse is from Non-Cal. So for someone who is 'supposedly' up on what is and isn't you are falling short on this. :thumbs: The only ones that I can find that say certain things do not fall into the HC catagroy are made from those who hold those particular views. There might be some out there who endorse such beliefs and not consider them HC but I haven't found one. Maybe you could help me there?

Engelsma'a defense apparently toward other notable Calvinist's wasn't a very good one :tear:

I realize you most likely know some PRC folks and my bet is they believe much similarly to your own view huh? :thumbs:

However all funny aside, It is not stating that ALL PRC are hyper but using it in a general or majority fashion. Kinda like saying Baptists hold to the OSAS position. The majority do but not all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
You don't read ( or spell )very well . I said that one would be hard pressed to find any Hyper-Calvinist who scores any points on Monergism's list . I did not say that hyper-Calvinists do not exist .

"HC is not a mytholoicagal animals ..." ?! Have you been drinking again ?

You're going to extremes with your wrongly spelled words .Think things out a bit before you type .
Your blindness is becoming amazing. The whole thing was written mocking your need to find something to say because everything else is refuted by those who understand Historic Calvinism. Nuff sed ! :wavey:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
I am not the only one who can read plainly enough to see glaring differences between the two lists Allan . J.D. is another on the BB who can tell the difference . Others are busy just reading this thread and not participating . I am sure others will come forward to expose the fraud of "they both say the same thing ."

Allan :"My list stands" . What singular list are you speaking of ?

You didn't address the specifics I made in particular with the two lists . I would say your cross-referencing skills are woefully deficient .

So it is indeed "you're" problem , Buddy .
Like I said, talk to Monergism and clear things up. We will wait patiently on the e-mail which they recant their agreement to and with Phil's.

I think I know why you wont though. You know their right and if you do try to correct them, you will have your hands full. That is ok though, it is good to be reporved at times to help keep you were you aught to be with due regard to your historical view.
 

Bethelassoc

Member
Rippon said:
I repeat , we Calvinists do not have to check up on what John Calvin wrote to believe what we believe . Your misunderstanding of Calvinism is a big handicap for you .The Bible is our Standard . But I guess it's hard for you to conceive how a Calvinist can be such without consulting John Calvin , huh ?

Ouch. Let me again clarify some things and maybe we can settle down the tempers, eh? I will use the term "some calvinists" rather than just calvinists. I do know some that claim calvinistic leanings that do define terms different than others. That was my point. Yes the bible is the standard for any christian, but when we mention historic calvinism, what is it? How do you know without looking at his writings?

Rippon you've prejudged me without knowing where I stand. I do stand with the calvinists rather than the arminians but I believe my earlier quote about inner debates has shown through. I don't understand it all, don't claim to, don't think anyone on here is an expert on it either. But I was defending the fact that you may have your thoughts on calvinism aside from what two websites state.

I appreciate Allan starting this thread to hash out some of the extreme teachings so both sides can see where the other stands.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
From.......
http://www.opc.org/OS/html/V10/3f.html

Comes from ...Ordained Servant

Arminianism, Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism
Introduction

In spite of the formal similarity between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism has much in common with Arminianism. In fact, Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism appear to be "alter egos" of the same problem. This is illustrated by an examination of certain presuppositions upon which their systems operate.

Presupposition #1: God's Decree — God's Desire

Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism both require that God's decree and God's desire correspond. The Arminian believes that since God desires that all should be saved, he did not decree that only some will be saved. The Hyper-Calvinist believes that since God decrees that only some will be saved, he does not desire that all should be saved. So, the Arminian collapses God's decree into his desire, and the Hyper-Calvinist collapses God's desire into his decree. Or you could say that they each effectively erase one for the other. But both extremes arise from the principle agreement that there must be no tension between God's decree and God's desire. The Calvinist, on the other hand, recognizes an important distinction between the decree and desire of God, and lives with the tension that there are some things which God decrees but does not desire (like sin and damnation), and there are some things which God desires but does not decree (like universal repentance and salvation).

Presupposition #2: The Love of God

Arminians and Hyper-Calvinists both believe God's love is restricted by his intent to save. Arminians believe God loves the whole world, therefore he is prepared to save the whole world. Hyper-Calvinists believe that since God only saves the elect he only loves the elect. But, Calvinists believe that in some way God loves even those he does not intend to save.

Presupposition #3: Ability and Responsibility

Arminians and Hyper-Calvinists both believe that ability to exercise saving faith and responsibility to exercise saving faith must correspond. Arminians suppose that since all are responsible to exercise saving faith, all must be able. Hyper-Calvinists believe that since only the elect are able only the elect are responsible. But, true Calvinists believe that even though many are not able to exercise saving faith, all are responsible to exercise saving faith.

Presupposition #4: The Extent of the Atonement and the Free-Offer of the Gospel

Arminians and Hyper-Calvinists both believe that knowledge of the extent of the atonement is necessary for the proclamation of the gospel. Arminians say that since the gospel must be proclaimed to all the atonement must be extended to all. Hyper-Calvinists believe that since the saving benefit of the atonement only extends to the elect, the gospel offer is really only for the elect. Yet, Calvinists believe that though we know the benefits of the atonement will not extend to all in a saving way, the benefits are to be offered to all in the preaching of the gospel.

Conclusion

These four points demonstrate that, in principle, Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism are similar in that both attempt to get rid of the tension by the use of human reason. Calvinism, on the other hand, is a system that is willing to live with a quiet tension, in order to avoid both of these errors.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Allan said:
Your blindness is becoming amazing. The whole thing was written mocking your need to find something to say because everything else is refuted by those who understand Historic Calvinism. Nuff sed ! :wavey:

Speaking of historic Calvinsm....
Another site says about the same thing as the one I just posted...

Site..... http://www.trinity-baptist-church.com/diff6.shtml

From the pastor of Trinity Baptist Church

V - HYPER-CALVINISM

Therefore we need to ask, what is a "Hyper-Calvinist"?

The word "Hyper" indicates a "going beyond", "further than the proper bounds"; it indicates an extreme, beyond the norm; and indeed there is such a thing as Hyper-Calvinism, but this can hardly be an acceptance and preaching of the "5 points", for looking historically and accurately at Calvinism the "5 points" are the norm.

In a very real sense Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism share a basic factor in common. They both try to apply human logic to the divine revelation. The Arminian reasons this way - "because men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel, they must therefore have the ability within themselves to do so" (they fail to apply the same logic to God's command to men to keep His law). From this bad logic they derive their doctrine of free will. The Hyper-Calvinist reasons this way - "because men do not have the ability within themselves to repent and believe the gospel, therefore there is no point in commanding them to do so". Both these groups are correct until they get to their "therefore", and then human logic and deduction takes over; but unfortunately they go beyond what is revealed in the Scriptures.

The Calvinistic, Biblical position takes the truth from both these statements and holds them both without trying to make them "logical". Men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel, and they are responsible to God to do so; men are unable in and of themselves to repent and believe because of their sinful nature. This is the dilemma into which the grace of God enters, according to His purpose of election, and by the mighty power of the Spirit, those for whom Christ died are made alive, and brought by the gospel to repentance and faith in the Saviour. This is the miracle of God's salvation!

The Hyper-Calvinist grasps the truth of man's inability, and the truth that God will certainly save His elect, but he wrongly deducts from that there is no necessity therefore to preach the gospel to every creature, and to engage in efforts to reach the lost.

His "logic" in going beyond the Scriptures brings him into an unbiblical position where he ceases to see the necessity of using God-ordained "means" to produce the God-ordained goals. This sad fact often produces a lack of evangelistic zeal and missionary activity among Hyper-Calvinists, and a lack of compassion for the lost.

Coupled with this fact we may say that the Hyper-Calvinist not only does not see the necessity for preaching the gospel to every creature, but considers it wrong to urge repentance and faith upon sinners indiscriminately. It is sometimes expressed this way, that the Hyper-Calvinist does not believe in "duty faith" and "duty repentance"; he does not believe that all men should be invited to come to Christ. In contrast to this, the historic Calvinist does most certainly believe that it is the duty and responsibility of all men to repent and believe even though they have, through sin, lost the ability to do so; and the Calvinist does not hesitate to bid all men everywhere to repent, and to invite every man to trust the Saviour.

True Calvinism therefore is not opposed to evangelism and missionary activity for it recognizes that the elect must be saved through the gospel, and like Paul the Calvinist puts the question "how shall they hear without a preacher"? Again, if it is the duty of all men to repent and believe, then all men must be told of this responsibility. The fact that true Calvinism is not opposed to evangelism and missionary work is attested to by the great names of history who have gone to the ends of the earth to proclaim the gospel and who were Calvinistic in their theology. The names of John Eliot, David Brainerd, John Paton, William Carey and George Whitefield suffice to make the point.

Hyper-Calvinism is also characterised by the view that God's decree of election is viewed without reference to the Fall of man, that is, the Hyper-Calvinist believes that God created some men with the express purpose of damning them simply as creatures, not as sinful, fallen creatures.

Historic Calvinism, on the other hand, has always presented God's decree of election as a most gracious decree against the background of the Fall of man. Out of a race already on the way to hell because of its own sin. God graciously wills to choose a great multitude out of sheer mercy and grace. God does not damn men for nothing says Calvinism. He damns them because of their sin.

Another characteristic that has been seen in some (though not all) Hyper-Calvinists is "Antinomianism". The word means "against or opposed to the law". It represents the idea that the moral law is not binding on the Christian, and some have indeed claimed to be God's elect, and on the basis of his claim have then proceeded to live as they pleased, disregarding the Word of God and bringing great reproach on the cause of Truth.

Historic Calvinism, following the Bible as its guide, has also insisted that the fact of election is always revealed in holiness of life, and has strongly condemned the Antinomianism of some Hyper-Calvinists.

Other factors might be added, but enough has been said to show that Hyper-Calvinism is as distinct from Historic Calvinism as is Arminianism. They are both extreme positions, though of course opposite extremes; they are both departures from the Biblical position, and both suffer from the insistence of applying human logic where human logic has no right to be!
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
jarthur001 said:
True Calvinism therefore is not opposed to evangelism and missionary activity for it recognizes that the elect must be saved through the gospel, and like Paul the Calvinist puts the question "how shall they hear without a preacher"?

Tell me, brother, is this condition of being "saved" in the eternal sense ?
I mean (and I have asked this question several times on the board) does hearing the gospel by the elect result in the blood of Christ being applied to him and being effective for him, washing away his sin, and acquiring for him the eternal salvation that God in eternity past planned he should have ?

I have no objection about the gospel being preached to anyone who will listen wherever and whenever an opportunity to do so is presented but like the hyper-Calvinist I do not believe that just any man is obliged to repent.

The obligation to repent and believe is to every elect child of God, who has already (as opposed to one who is to be) regenerate.

What both Arminians and Calvinists fail to realize, or refuse to accept (because it will go against orthodox teaching as well as seminary teaching) is that Paul in the above quoted text is speaking of regenerate and elect Jews who are still caught up in their religion for the simple reason that Christians of his era are so fearful of orthodox Jewry that these have not been reached with the good news of Christ's finished salvation. Therefore the question: how then shall they hear without a preacher ?
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jarthur001 said:
Speaking of historic Calvinsm....
Another site says about the same thing as the one I just posted...

Site..... http://www.trinity-baptist-church.com/diff6.shtml

From the pastor of Trinity Baptist Church

I am in full agreement with this article by the deceased William Payne .It is not comprehensive , but what it states about the stance of most Hyper-Calvinists is true .

Allan , another list for ya'!
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
I am in full agreement with this article by the deceased William Payne .It is not comprehensive , but what it states about the stance of most Hyper-Calvinists is true .

Allan , another list for ya'!
YES! And it even agrees with what I have already presented with what little it sets forth but does not negate nor disagree with the rest :thumbs: You can see at the end of the article where it even states there is more but that basically what they give is enough to show that HC is distinctively different from Historical Calvnism.
Other factors might be added, but enough has been said to show that Hyper-Calvinism is as distinct from Historic Calvinism as is Arminianism. They are both extreme positions, though of course opposite extremes;

However the other list James gave equates much better :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Rippon said:
I am in full agreement with this article by the deceased William Payne .It is not comprehensive , but what it states about the stance of most Hyper-Calvinists is true .

Allan , another list for ya'!

Allan , how would the points raised by Pastor Paine as being Hyper-Calvinistic be representative of the PRC ? Not one of those H-C propositions are held by the PRC . That's why it is wrong for anyone to lump them in the H-C category .Of course if you aren't familiar with the PRC you can pass on this .
 

Allan

Active Member
Rippon said:
Allan , how would the points raised by Pastor Paine as being Hyper-Calvinistic be representative of the PRC ? Not one of those H-C propositions are held by the PRC . That's why it is wrong for anyone to lump them in the H-C category .Of course if you aren't familiar with the PRC you can pass on this .
Because it is not an exhaustive list. It touches on a few of the main points such as no evangelism, God created some men with the express purpose of damning them simply as creatures (IOW - before man sinned), and the view of Antinomianism, but that is all he spoke on. There are more than 3 points in contention with Historical Calvinism, he knows that and is why he states:
"Other factors might be added, but enough has been said to show that Hyper-Calvinism is as distinct from Historic Calvinism as is Arminianism. They are both extreme positions, though of course opposite extremes;"

Now, the real question here is is he speaking for on behalf of the whole of PRC? Answer, no. Are all PRC Hyper? I never said that nor did the others of whom I quoted and have even stated such already. In any group there are always subgroups.

Remember this thread is for allowing people to know the most common views which fairly accurately discribes the common views of those who are HC or have in their views HC tendencies. This is not about marking or labeling a person specifically an HC but being able to identify aspects or specific beliefs associated with HC.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top