Hyper-Calvinism Heresy

[TomVols]

Even Matthew Henry, an avowed Calvinist, agrees with many non-calvinistic interpreters in that this text does not apply to Christians. His argument is that while God is perfectly free to elect some and not elect others, he is perfectly free to wish the salvation of all men. So we as Reformed folks do not need to fear this text or try to explain it away. We need only to explain it in light of the whole Scripture.
We need to remember that Calvinism is a theology, not a philosophy. It is Scripturally based. It is centered in a savior sufficient for all who will come to Him in repentance and faith.

[ July 06, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

[Bob Alkire]

I beleive that when Christ was judged on the cross,He paid for the sins of the entire human race- which means it is open to ALL and WHOSOEVER will believe in Him for salvation. However The Holy Spirit gives us the faith. Keep in mind I'm just an old truck driver.
Rom.5:6; 2Cor.5:14-15,19;1Tim. 2:6;4:10;Titus 2:11;Heb.2:9;1 John2:2.

 

[spudgin]

Indeed, hyper-Calvinism is heresy. However, Reformed theology, i.e. Calvinism, is biblical and apostolic. From a Reformed Baptist viewpoint of course.

 

[TomVols]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spudgin:
Indeed, hyper-Calvinism is heresy. However, Reformed theology, i.e. Calvinism, is biblical and apostolic. From a Reformed Baptist viewpoint of course. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome aboard Spudgin.

Tom

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spudgin:
Indeed, hyper-Calvinism is heresy. However, Reformed theology, i.e. Calvinism, is biblical and apostolic. From a Reformed Baptist viewpoint of course. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen spudgin and Tomvols!

For a scholarly discourse on the wills of God, see Are There Two Wills in God? Divine Election and God's Desire for All to be Saved by John Piper at http://desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/DoctrinesGrace/2wills.htm

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swaimj:
At the beginning of this thread, Psalm 145:3 made a simple assertion:



To back up his statement he gave seven scripture references:

I. Jn 2:2
Is 53:6
Mt. 11:28
II Pet 2:1
I Tim 2:4
I Tim 4:10

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: swaimj ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

REDEMPTION IN II PETER 2:1

(A Doctrinal Study on the Extent of the Atonement)

Dr. Gary D. Long

_____________________



The Greek Words for Redemption

The Greek words in the Bible from which the English translators get the word “redeem” (purchase, buy), when used in a salvation (soteriological) context, always (with II Peter 2:1 being the only contended exception) mean deliverance from sin by blood; that is, by the payment of a ransom, which is the “precious blood of Christ” (I Pet. 1:19). For example, the Greek word lutrõõ (redeem), in its related verb and noun forms—both simple (lutron) and compound (antilutron and apolutrõsis), is used some eighteen times in the New Testament. Fifteen times it is used in a salvation context and reflects the substitutionary nature of Christ’s sacrificial offering as a high priest. The price is His blood and the result is deliverance from sin. Three times it is used in a non-salvation context to refer to temporal (physical) deliverance from danger or oppression. In this observation the Calvinistic universalists agree with the historic Calvinists. It is in the word agorazõ (usually translated “bought”) that support is claimed for universal redemption. The prefixed form of agorazõ, exagorazõ (also translated “redeem”) is admitted by both four- and five-point Calvinists to be a term restricted to the elect of God (see Gal. 3:13;4:5). Therefore, the issue on the terms for redemption centers upon the word “to buy” (agorazõ).

See full article at http://www.the-highway.com/2Pet2.1.html

 

[Chris Temple]

For several excellent essays on the extent of the atonement, see http://www.the-highway.com/atonement.html

 

[TomVols]

Chris, you are better with the links than Tiger Woods! (Get it?)


Seriously, excellent links as always. Keep em coming.

 

[spudgin]

Thanks for the welcome Tom Vols.

I agree with you about the link made known to us by Chris. Perhaps the hypothetical universalists will bookmark it and actually read some of the essays. Anyway, we Reformed Christians gotta stick together.

 

[Ransom]

fwbbcflames said:

To say that God is speaking only to the church, I don't think so. Why would Peter say all come to repentance,to the saved?

Because at the time Peter was writing that passage, he knew (or at least assumed) that there were many people whom God had chosen for himself, but who had not yet repented and been saved.

People like you and me, for example, who were not even to be born for almost 2000 years.

That is the whole point of the passage! Peter is answering mockers who are asking why God hasn't returned yet. Peter's answer is that God still has people out there, and he will not close history until every last one of them has been saved.

[ July 06, 2001: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[Chet]

I was invited to take a look-see here by Chris Temple and I want to thank Chris Temple for that warm invitation.

I have been exposed to Calvinism and have debated people who I feel are highly intellegent, and well educated in thier field. I have devoted a great deal of time in the study of this subject, and have had an open mind and heart.

I do not belive its fair to generalize all Calvinist its certainly not my intent to do so. Perhaps there are some good people here I don't know yet. But It seems that the ones I talk to in the past are so filled with pride because they were "picked" and they want to follow the "historical men of the faith" more than the Bible. They are not as open minded as others, and they really believe that they are much more intellectuall, and I think that usually that is what draws them to that way of thinking in the first place.

I also have very much found it to be true of what swaimj said in his post...Where is the rebuttal?? In the past I have given so many verses and all I hear is...your wrong, or your just an Arminianist (which I am not) or you don't believe God is powerful, which I do. Ect... I sure hope that I don't go thru that again.

Here are just a FEW thoughts on the System in general. I have so many more things to say but I will limit it to these.

Jesus asked Peter and the twelve WILL ye also go away? In John 6. His answer was no, he realized Jesus had the words of eternal life.

Jesus asked the blind man at the pool in John 5 WILT thou be made whole? His answer being DEAD was yes.

John 3:18 makes it clear that it is on OUR shoulders. We must believe, or we must condemn ourself.

John 1:12 clearly states that we are to receive Him, not us waiting to be picked. Notice FIRST comes receiving then regeneration.

John 3:14 teaches that as Israel looked at the serpent (Numbers 21) to be forgiven, first comes the look, then salvation.

John 11:25 in the LAZARUS account, teaches that we must believe in Him though we were DEAD, we then shall be made alive.

John 12:32 says that if Christ be lifted up from the earth then this will draw ALL men unto me.

Acts 17:30 calls ALL men every where to repent. (this would be impossible if we were unable. Depravity does not mean inability)

Ephesians 2:8 teaches that it is though faith that grace is given. Not through grace that faith is given.


The gospel calls us to believe, not wait to be chosen, God waits for a responce from us.
He did die for all people. I get coupons all of the time for Pizza Hut. Pizza Hut is giving me free money off IF I buy their pizza. Now they are giving this coupon to everybody, but not everybody will accept their offer. I won't because I also get the same coupons from Dominoes, I do accept their offer their pizza is better. In fact I am waiting for the delivery guy now.

Jesus paid for everyone, but not all claim that payment. Some people reject the offer even though it was paid for them.

With great love,

Chet

 

[swaimj]

Chris,
Thanks for posting the links. I read several tonite and am "chewing" on it. Piper's article was interesting. He seems to hold that Christ died for all but specifically for the elect. He shifts the debate to the issue of how people come to salvation. Do they come by free will or by irresistible grace? That's my analysis of what he is saying. I do think that it is important that we deal with the passages that come into play in this issue. Otherwise the two sides tend to talk past each other.

 

[jon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to perentance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is important to discerning when using scripture passages. If we use your intended interpretation we have to come to the conclusion that all will be saved because it is God's sovereign will that it be so. The word willing would be better translated as desire. God does not desire that any should perish but he desires that all would come to repentance but obviously some will perish. By your interpretation God will is not reliable because not all are saved. There is a difference between God sovereignty willing something to happen and his willing in the sense of his desire.

I believe that Christ did die for all but no one can believe without Grace. I think the passage that better resolves this debate is Eph 2:8-10 [8] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- [9] not by works, so that no one can boast. [10] For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

If it is not of Grace then man is responsible for his own salvation

 

[jon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The gospel calls us to believe, not wait to be chosen, God waits for a responce from us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that is very hard for us to understand the ways of God. How do we balance the fact that God is completely soverign yet we are held responsible for our choices? The statement I just quoted is describing a God other than the God of the bible. How can God be all knowing and Soverign and yet be hanging on mans' decision? So then is God constantly changing his plan and will based on the whims of sinful Man? How can our future be secure and how can we have hope in the prophecies if this is true?

 

[Psalm145 3]

A preacher who believes in limited atonement can only say, "repent and believe the Gospel, that is, if you were picked by God to be saved. You see, Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of some people here, but not others of you. God picks who gets saved and He picks who goes to hell, it has nothing to do with your choice. He didn't give you free will to repent and turn to Christ. If God lets you believe the Gospel, then you were elected. All I can say is go ahead and try to believe, but if you can't, that just means God didn't pick you to be saved. It's not your fault if you go to hell."

This poses a huge theological problem. If limited atonement were true, then the unsaved at the great white throne judgement would be able to say, "it's not my fault, God, You were the One who didn't elect me. It's all Your fault I'm going to the lake of fire, not mine."

The truth is, when an unbeliever is sentenced to hell for eternity, it is by his own choice "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[fwbbcflames]

Good point about the white throne judgement. I guess if you are the chosen then you name is already written in the book of life. Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.(Rv 20:15) Why is so hard to believe that Jesus dided for everyone?

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
Good point about the white throne judgement. I guess if you are the chosen then you name is already written in the book of life. Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.(Rv 20:15) Why is so hard to believe that Jesus dided for everyone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why then is not everyone saved? Why do people go to hell who have already had their sins atoned for?

 

[Chris Temple]

Chet:

I do not believe its fair to generalize all Calvinist its certainly not my intent to do so. Perhaps there are some good people here I don't know yet. But It seems that the ones I talk to in the past are so filled with pride because they were "picked" and they want to follow the "historical men of the faith" more than the Bible. They are not as open minded as others, and they really believe that they are much more intellectuall, and I think that usually that is what draws them to that way of thinking in the first place.

Chet – This may be true of some, (particularly on the internet) but I have found just the opposite: those who are truly Reformed are among the most humble people I have ever met. How else can one be when one knows that they are a worm, worthless with no good in them, and God in his grace and mercy has chosen them to be saved, not for their sake but for the praise and glory of his name? OTOH, I have found arrogance in Arminians who believe that their free will is more important than God’s will.

Of course the fact of who acts how is insignificant to the larger question of what does the Bible teach.

I also have very much found it to be true of what swaimj said in his post...Where is the rebuttal?? In the past I have given so many verses and all I hear is...your wrong, or your just an Arminianist (which I am not) or you don't believe God is powerful, which I do. Ect... I sure hope that I don't go thru that again.

There are several rebuttals here at this thread, and tons at the old BB. I find most often that Calvinistic rebuttals are not even considered by anti-Calvinists, and the same free-will “proof texts” are proffered over and over. As in KJVO debates, it gets tiring after awhile repeating the same cogent yet ignored arguments.

Jesus asked Peter and the twelve WILL ye also go away? In John 6. His answer was no, he realized Jesus had the words of eternal life.

Jesus asked a lot of questions for a variety of reasons; it plays no part in the Reformed theology debate.

Jesus asked the blind man at the pool in John 5 WILT thou be made whole? His answer being DEAD was yes.

And who enabled him to say yes? God. Narratives must usually have their theology explained by the more didactic passages of Scripture. Matt 16:17 says “Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” Scripture must interpret Scripture, the general defined by the particular.

John 3:18 makes it clear that it is on OUR shoulders. We must believe, or we must condemn ourself.

Actually, that’s not what the passage says. It says “"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And responsibility is not at odds with Calvinism; indeed biblical Calvinism stresses man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty. Any Calvinistic system which seems to de-emphasize man’s responsibility is in error.

John 1:12 clearly states that we are to receive Him, not us waiting to be picked. Notice FIRST comes receiving then regeneration.

The point of regeneration is debated even by some Calvinists. Nevertheless, most hold that regeneration is necessary for the heart to be changed and enabled to believe. And its disingenuous to quote John 1.12 w/o quoting 1.13: “who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” v 13 makes it very clear that the receiving and belief do not come from flesh and blood man, nor the will of man, but the will of God .

John 3:14 teaches that as Israel looked at the serpent (Numbers 21) to be forgiven, first comes the look, then salvation.

Agreed. But posting many verses showing men’s need to react and believe does not circumvent the underlying cause of that repentance: God’s grace in election.

John 12:32 says that if Christ be lifted up from the earth then this will draw ALL men unto me.

An obvious case of all not meaning universal all. Obviously, since all men are not saved. As in many other passages, it means all kinds of men.

Acts 17:30 calls ALL men every where to repent. (this would be impossible if we were unable. Depravity does not mean inability)

Again, Calvinists interpret this differently. Some interpret it as all elect men everywhere. I think this verse is better interpreted all men universally, as all men universally are responsible to repent, even if they cannot. This passage does no damage to man’s inability to repent on his own.

Ephesians 2:8 teaches that it is though faith that grace is given. Not through grace that faith is given.

Absolutely not. This is a case of taking a verse and making it mean what you want. The subject is grace, and everything else flows from it: the faith, the gift of salvation, and the work of believing. That is why no man can boast, because he has done nothing in regards to salvation on his own. It is all of God.

The gospel calls us to believe, not wait to be chosen, God waits for a responce from us.

It is a strawman argument to intimate that any Calvinist tells anyone to wait to be chosen. Every Calvinist calls for men everywhere to repent and believe NOW. Yet we know that our duty is not to convert anyone, only to preach the gospel faithfully. The work of regeneration and salvation is the work of God.

He did die for all people. I get coupons all of the time for Pizza Hut. Pizza Hut is giving me free money off IF I buy their pizza. Now they are giving this coupon to everybody, but not everybody will accept their offer. I won't because I also get the same coupons from Dominoes, I do accept their offer their pizza is better. In fact I am waiting for the delivery guy now.

Thankfully, God does not operate in “Pizza Hut” theology. DO you really want your eternal destiny in your own hands? I’m much more comfortable with it in God’s hands, who never makes a wrong decision.

No one seeks after God, everyone has turned to their own wicked way. But thankfully, God has chosen to save some, who have no merit in themselves. We cannot even decide to “do good” until God enables us to do so.

Jesus paid for everyone, but not all claim that payment. Some people reject the offer even though it was paid for them.

Then Jesus failed at the cross, for he said he lays down his life for the sheep and he came to seek and save those who were lost. People do not go to hell who have had their sins atoned for. Rather, they repent, and believe. He did not come to make salvation possible. He came to SAVE.

Sincerely,
Chris

[ July 07, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

[ July 07, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

[Kiffin]

Psalms 145:3 said

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A preacher who believes in limited atonement can only say, "repent and believe the Gospel, that is, if you were picked by God to be saved. You see, Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of some people here, but not others of you. God picks who gets saved and He picks who goes to hell, it has nothing to do with your choice. He didn't give you free will to repent and turn to Christ. If God lets you believe the Gospel, then you were elected. All I can say is go ahead and try to believe, but if you can't, that just means God didn't pick you to be saved. It's not your fault if you go to hell.".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Calvinism does not teach God makes arbitrary choices. The premise of your statement implies all the listeners are in a neutral position. The problem with those who deny limited atonement is that they believe Jesus just made Salvation a possibilty for all people but has actually secured it for none.

Who did Jesus die for? Most say that Christ died for every single human being who
ever lived but did he.

Christ died for the elect. On the Cross the Lord Jesus secured their salvation. (John
10:11,Mat 26:28,Eph. 1:11) Jesus did not make salvation a possibility but paid the
ransom for the elect

When the elect are regenerated to spiritual life by the power of the Holy Spirit in
which they are enabled to turn to Christ in FAITH and REPENTANCE, then the
gift of eternal life which Christ secured on the cross is then bestowed upon them
(Acts 13:48, Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5)


Objections are usually made with 1 John 2:2 - “whole world” Does this mean for every single person in the world?

Does "world" always mean evey individual? Luke 2:1 tells us Caesar taxed “all the world”. We know however that does not mean every individual living in the world but clearly means the Roman Empire, not every person in the world.

1 John 5:19 - says the whole world lies in wickedness but certaintly the context is referring to the lost world but not the saved.

1 John 2:2 “World” indicates that Christ death is for people of all nations who repent
and believe upon Christ as Savior.

Hebrews 2:9
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

"EVERY MAN" but who is "EVERY MAN"? vs. 10 tells us, "bringing many sons unto glory" and verse 13 further clarifies this "13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. " Those that God has given Christ!


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This poses a huge theological problem. If limited atonement were true, then the unsaved at the great white throne judgement would be able to say, "it's not my fault, God, You were the One who didn't elect me. It's all Your fault I'm going to the lake of fire, not mine."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It poses no problem since God don't owe no one salvation. All are sinners and deserve Hell if God chose to elect one or Billions then He is just. You imply man deserves salvation. He doesn't. We all deserve Hell. Was it unfair to Babylon, Assyria, Egypt that God chose Abraham? Israel God's chosen people in the OT had greater advantages than their pagan neighbors in tht they had the Law and the pagans didn't. Why did God give light to Israel and not Egypt, Babylon etc..? Answer: God owes His grace to know one. He can justly give it to anyone or withhold it justly since none deserve His light.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The truth is, when an unbeliever is sentenced to hell for eternity, it is by his own choice "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, we are in agreement.

[ July 07, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

[Kiffin]

Christ died for all who shall be saved (the elect). On the Cross the Lord Jesus secured
their salvation. (John 10:11,Mat 26:28,Eph. 1:11) Jesus did not make salvation a possibility but paid the ransom for all who would place their faith in Him.

"written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the
world."(Revelation 13:8b)

"written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8b)

Scripture is clear that all the names of the elect were written in the Book of Life
before the foundation of the world and it was for these Christ died for.General atonement teaches that Christ death just makes salvation a possibility but does not
actually secure the salvation of any.

Definite atonement declares that Christ died only for those who believe or the elect. That Jesus died for the elect is New Testament teaching. This is perfectly illustrated in John 6:37-40

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John MacArthur wrote“Before the earth began, God determined that every elect sinner-however vile or useless and deserving of death- by trusting in Christ shall be made righteous”

And When were the elect given to Jesus? Before the foundation of the world and it
was for these that Christ gave his life for
(Acts 13:48)


I will give you an illustration or a parable,

A man is walking in a dark and evil land along with multitudes of others. This man suddenly sees a door. On that door is the statement"WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME"The man is drawn to this door and at first resists but finally enters in this door, When he enters in he comes into a land of light where the saints of all ages dwell. He looks back at the door he entered and it is no more but a plaque is there "AS MANY AS WERE APPOINTED UNTO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED"

[ July 07, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

[ July 07, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]