Mike Drewery, First thing I want to say to you is thanks for the great dialog. Iron sharpens iron. And I sense in your post a spirit of discussion and love, not contention and an "argue" spirit. Thanks.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mike Drewery posted: This should show you that God did not choose Israel because Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So now you say that God Chose Israel (Jacob) because Abraham did something?
And the promises given to Abraham were given before Isaac was even born.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would also like to ask you who is really in control of this universe? Or who is sovereign God or man?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
God is in control. No question. And in his sovereign will He chose to make salvation available for everyone, without His having to force it upon them. That never neglects the sovereignty of God.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, if Jesus died for everyone and everyone isn't saved, then Jesus failed. Is Jesus a failure? Is God so weak that He cant save anyone so He needs our help<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jesus died for the Sins of the World. All Sin was laid upon Him. He has perfect righteousness to offer to all of us on the
condition of our faith. Remember faith pleases God also.
Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(KJV)
Now there is an interesting verse.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First, do you believe the predestined people of Romans 8:28-30 are also Jesus Christ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For whom He foreknew,= God foreknew everyone who would trust in Him. I do not believe that God is unable to know all things with now time barriers.
He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, = This is a fact, God had pre-destined that the ones who trust in Him would be conformed to the image of His Son.
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren; = the Firstborn is Jesus
and whom He predestined, = I believe that Jesus was also predestined, to pay for our sins ect...
these He also called; = John 6:44
"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
Here is where we are probably going to disagree over one little word - draw -.
I will be the very first to admit I have absolutely no knowledge of Greek. But there are men who do, and I try to study what they teach in their dictionaries. Here is one of my favorites, Spiros Zodhiates:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); To draw towared without necessarily the notion of force as in
suro4951. See Acts 8:3; 14:19; 17:6 Rev 12:4. Tp drag, although it may be just implied (Acts 16:19, of persons, to drag, force before magistrates;21:30, "out of the temple";James 2:6)
Helkuo is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (John 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come). It is the drawing to a certain point as in John 21:6, 11 indication the drawing of the net while
suro (John 21:8) is merely dragging. To draw with a sword (John 18:10). See Sept.: 2Sam 22:17 ; Ps 10:9 Jer 38:13<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So his conclusion on the meaning of the Greek word here is to draw without force.
Now I fully maintain that we are a wicked people. We are lost, blinded, and depraved. In fact we are dead spiritually. I fully believe that we will NOT be able to come to God without Him drawing us. No question. Here is one way I belive God does that:
John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thirdly, what about Acts 13:48? "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The context shows that the Gentiles were glad because they too have been appointed to eternal life...
Acts 13:45-48
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(KJV)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From your posts it seems as if you're saying that you just can't accept a God Who chooses some people for salvation and (justly) leaves the rest of mankind in their sins. Therefore, you explain away passages that seem to reveal a God like that. This is just the impression I've gotten.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't accept a God who chooses some people for salvation and leaves the rest of mankind in their sins. And it is not just. This is just an analogy, that is human in origin (and its from my head) so please don't pick it apart.
Its like if you have two sons, they both love to eat sweets. You could force them both to eat fruit, but instead its in your power to just pick one. You will let the other just grow fat and unhealthy. And justify it because he likes sweets more that fruit. But rather it would be better for that Father to provide fruit for both.
I am not explaining away verses, but trying to explain them. And just as I predicted not yet have I seen anyone try to give me a rebuttal on all the verse I posted. Its a two way street here.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Finally, you have repeatedly emphasized that all men can seek after God (I don't think I'm misquoting you). I would just like a little clarification of this. What do you do with Romans 3:9-11 which explicitly says that none seek after God?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let me get back to you on that... if you don't mind.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chris you wrote: A wise friend recently said this to me:"I knew a man who liked to tell those who rejected denominational or other labels, 'Tell me what you believe and I'll tell you what you are.' It's a good point - and these people who deny being Arminians show by what they believe that they are in fact Arminians. One might as well deny being a vegetarian when he insists that he only eats vegetables."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chris, I predicted that also.
Are you Baptist?
With love,
Chet