Hyper-Calvinism Heresy

[Dr. Bob]

Note from the Logic Professor -

Chet et al: Carefully distinguish between John 6 and John 12. They are not dealing with the same issues or the same people. To define one passage and then apply it to the other is eisogesis and thus invalid.

(Most make a wrong conclusion, as you did, about "drawing" all men.)

Apples and oranges. Exegesis of Scripture must be consistent within its context. It will help with further discussion.

Hey, Why not start a new thread? This is way too long. I'll let you start.

 

[Kiffin]

Preacherboy said,

"Now you ask yourself why God chose Israel over any other nation. It was because Abraham was willing to sacrafice his only son so God showed favortism to him by telling him that through his seed all nations will be blessed,"

Actually God had already chose Him before then. Old Testament scriptures indicate God chose Abraham and Israel simply out of His grace and not because of any goodness in them.

 

[Chris Temple]

This thread began with the claim that hyper-Calvinism is heresy. With that I can agree. True hyper-Calvinism is heresy. However true biblical Calvinism is the gospel.

The deadliest sovereignty-stealing, man-exalting, God-ridiculing heresy is Arminianism. It is deadly because it takes the sovereignty of God and replaces it with the sovereignty of man. Arminians may flail and argue and claim that they believe in a Sovereign God, but they must radically change definitions of sovereignty, depravity, election and atonement in order to do so.

Arminianism in essence forces God to respond to sovereign acts of man, waiting for man to make eternal decisions, and then God may act. It is the anti-gospel, another which is not really another (Gal 1:6-7).

It is, anathema.

 

[Scott J]

Chet, I have been reading your posts here for several days. Can you clarify this response for me?

"God is in control. No question. And in his sovereign will He chose to make salvation available for everyone, without His having to force it upon them. That never neglects the sovereignty of God."

In what sense were the saved chosen before the foundation of the world?

And here is an analogy for you: Three firemen willingly volunteer to go into a burning building. A ceiling collapses leaving all 3 unconscious and helpless on the floor of the burning building. Right before the whole building collapses, the last man leaving notices the three laying side by side. He chooses one of them, knowing the others will die, and gets out just before the collapse.

Questions: Did he force the man to be saved? Yes, the man probably would have insisted on staying had he been conscious. Just like mankind depends on his own self-sufficiency unless "forced" by the convicting Holy Spirit. Was it a just action? After all, they all went in together of their own choosing. Yes it was just. Choosing to save one did not condemn the others to a fate any worse than what they already had coming. All of mankind deserves hell. It is the election by God that saves some. Did the one man deserve to be saved more than the others? No. His salvation was totally dependent on the choice and self-sacrificial actions of another!

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

[miked]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet:
Mike Drewery, First thing I want to say to you is thanks for the great dialog. Iron sharpens iron. And I sense in your post a spirit of discussion and love, not contention and an "argue" spirit. Thanks.



Chris, I predicted that also.
Are you Baptist?

With love,

Chet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear Chet,
Thank you for your gracious compliment. First I would like to say that when I wrote, "This should show you that God did not choose Israel because Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac." I was responding to PreacherBoy's post. It was sounding as if PreacherBoy was saying that the reason God chose Israel (the country or people) that it was because of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac and I was showing by scripture that this is just not true. In fact, if you look at my past post carefully you will see that I do not think that man does anything to be chosen of God.

Secondly you made this statement, "Jesus died for the Sins of the World. All Sin was laid upon Him. He has perfect righteousness to offer to all of us on the condition of our faith." Here is another area in which calvinist and arminians disagree, and that is the nature of faith, or whose faith it is? I will grant that many people have "faith" in alot of things, but that is their faith and not the faith given to us by God. For example, Buddhist have a strong faith in Buddha but that faith is not from God, it is their faith. Calvinist, for the most part, believe that faith is a gift from God and the Holy Spirit. Look closely at Eph. 2:8, the phrase "and that not of yourselves:" is in reference to faith. Also, notice in Galations when Paul lists the fruits of the Spirit, faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit. Now if it is a fruit, it is a product of the Spirit, not of ourselves.

Thirdly you said, "For whom He foreknew,= God foreknew everyone who would trust in Him. I do not believe that God is unable to know all things with now time barriers." The word foreknow means to foreordain. God didn't just look down through the tunnel of time and see who would be saved, if this is true God did not know all things and had to look or learn to see who would be saved. So how did He foreknow? Because He foreordained who would be saved. Also, this has the idea of an intimate relationship, God only has an intimate relationship (like a sexual intimacy between man and wife) with His Bride, which is the Church, the elect of God.

Thirdly, I would ask you to read John 6:44 and Acts 21:30. Do you realize that the words "draw" and "drag" are the same words in the greek? Now I say that to show you that you have to be very careful when you speak of the greek language. Does God "force" the elect to be saved? That is a silly question and absurd. Ask any person saved of God if they were saved and they didn't want to be. I don't know one child of God that is saved that didn't want to be saved. God drawing is with the chords of love. You see God makes us willing in the day of salvation. Also read Romans 9:14-16.

Fourthly, you used a passage that greatly points to God's sovereign election, Acts 18:28. Notice this verse again carefully, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." It doesn't say that all the Gentiles were saved, it says just those that were appointed to eternal life believed. Who appointed (same word as ordained)these people to believe? Sovereign God, who else? Only those that were appointed to eternal life by God believed, not everyone.

Lastly, you brought up the issue of it not being just. I would ask you to read my first post once again. If you want justness from God then you and everyone will spend eternity in hell. That is true justice.

For His Glory Alone,
Mike Drewery

 

[miked]

I would just like to say in response to Scott J's post, that I am a PB (primitive baptist). I have no doubt that there are some and many PBs that believe the way that you describe, but not all do. In fact the PBs that I am in contact and a member of do not believe that way. They believe in the perseverance of the saints, they believe you can have an assurance of salvation, as well as believe in the spread of the gospel through missions. In fact I ask you all to pray as my pastor prepares to go to Kenya again on his second trip and this time will we pray get to establish a church there and spread the wonderful gospel of grace...the only and true gospel.

For His Glory Alone,
Mike Drewery

 

[Chet]

Mike Drewery

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This should show you that God did not choose Israel because Abraham was willing
to sacrifice Isaac." I was responding to PreacherBoy's post. It was sounding as if
PreacherBoy was saying that the reason God chose Israel (the country or people) that it
was because of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac and I was showing by scripture that this is just not true. In fact, if you look at my past post carefully you will see that I do not think that man does anything to be chosen of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My deepest apologies. Please forgive me, I should have paid closer attention.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Eph. 2:8, the phrase "and that not of yourselves:" is in reference to faith.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I just disagree. I believe that the gift of salvation is in reference to “not of
ourselves”, and the gift is Jesus Christ. His offer has three main functions, It takes perfect righteousness to enter heaven, Christ wants to give us that righteousness. The wages of sin is debt, we owe what we can’t pay, Jesus paid for that debt. We are still dead in the Spirit, Jesus rose again to give us life, and that life is eternal. We can’t lose our salvation. Someone can purchase a gift for us, offer it to us, yet we could reject that gift.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God didn't just look down through the tunnel of time and see who would be saved,
if this is true God did not know all things and had to look or learn to see who would be
saved..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I say to you that is an excellent point. Very good. I will have to change my thinking on that. I would have to say God is so powerful and all knowing He just had to know. Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thirdly, I would ask you to read John 6:44 and Acts 21:30. Do you realize that the
words "draw" and "drag" are the same words in the Greek? Now I say that to show you
that you have to be very careful when you speak of the Greek language. Does God
"force" the elect to be saved? That is a silly question and absurd. Ask any person saved of God if they were saved and they didn't want to be. I don't know one child of God that is saved that didn't want to be saved. God drawing is with the chords of love. You see God makes us willing in the day of salvation. Also read Romans 9:14-16.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I want to be careful in how I respond. Sometimes its really hard to articulate what one wants to say. I think again you had a good point. Yes if you were to ask any Christian if they were forced, they would say no, I wanted it. But what Calvinist are teaching is that there is a “force”. On one side they teach that all men can’t be saved, and can’t respond favorably to the Gospel, and can’t come to Christ because they are totally depraved. Then on the other side Calvinist teach that in order for one to be saved then God had to draw them, or use his irresistible grace. Now lets ask the non-Christian... Do you want all that Christianity has to offer and they will say no. You can’t ask the Christian, you must
ask the lost person. It is therefore a “force”.

Concerning Acts 18, I guess maybe we are both missing each other on this one? I
maintain that the appointed ones were Gentiles, they rejoiced in that they could have the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph. They too were appointed to the same Salvation that first the Jews were offered. It was not exclusive to the Hebrew people.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lastly, you brought up the issue of it not being just. I would ask you to read my
first post once again. If you want justness from God then you and everyone will spend
eternity in hell. That is true justice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well its not justice for those whom God picked is it? All of Gods chosen never have to pay for their unbelief. Yet those who are not chosen, are really chosen for hell. I don’t care how you look at it, if God chose those to whom would be saved, then He is also choosing those who won’t be. And those people are simply not given a fair chance. They are told, “ your wicked, you like being wicked, your doomed, your vile, your dead, your the furthest thing from God, and there is NOTHING you can do about it. So God allowed them to be born into that, and let them remain lost because he chose not them. Therefore when they stand before God, they are simply not to blame. And God made Hell for the devil not for people.

As to Romans 3. Tell me how you reconcile the following passages:
Matt 6:33
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things
shall be added unto you.
(KJV)
Matt 7:7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: (KJV)

Scott J
Your question : In what sense were the saved chosen before the foundation of the world?

The saved was not chosen, but God did know who they were. And I believe that the
chosen one is Christ.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Did he force the man to be saved? Yes, the man probably would have
insisted on staying had he been conscious. Just like mankind depends on his own
self-sufficiency unless "forced" by the convicting Holy Spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well where we disagree is with being forced. I do believe we are depraved. But God
made us able to still come to Him. Now please understand I believe the Bible teaches we love Him because first loved us. And we MUST be convicted. And there must be a
calling. Christ has to be lifted up. We are depraved, but not incapable.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>All of mankind deserves hell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Boy that is the truth. God’s mercy is so wonderful Amen! I think sometimes we all forget just how much we deserved hell.

Dr. Bob Griffin, could you elaborate just a bit for me on John 6 and 12. Thanks.


I just ordered a book by Norm Geisler called “Chosen but Free” I can’t wait to get into it to read his thoughts.

God Bless,

With love,

Chet

 

[Scott J]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Drewery:
I would just like to say in response to Scott J's post, that I am a PB (primitive baptist). I have no doubt that there are some and many PBs that believe the way that you describe, but not all do. In fact the PBs that I am in contact and a member of do not believe that way. They believe in the perseverance of the saints, they believe you can have an assurance of salvation, as well as believe in the spread of the gospel through missions. In fact I ask you all to pray as my pastor prepares to go to Kenya again on his second trip and this time will we pray get to establish a church there and spread the wonderful gospel of grace...the only and true gospel.

For His Glory Alone,
Mike Drewery<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize if it seemed I was painting with too broad of a brush. It seems most group labels get defined by their most radical elements. Being an Independent Baptist which to some people infers Hyles/Ruckman type beliefs gives me empathy for you.

 

[Scott J]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Drewery:
I would just like to say in response to Scott J's post, that I am a PB (primitive baptist). I have no doubt that there are some and many PBs that believe the way that you describe, but not all do. In fact the PBs that I am in contact and a member of do not believe that way. They believe in the perseverance of the saints, they believe you can have an assurance of salvation, as well as believe in the spread of the gospel through missions. In fact I ask you all to pray as my pastor prepares to go to Kenya again on his second trip and this time will we pray get to establish a church there and spread the wonderful gospel of grace...the only and true gospel.

For His Glory Alone,
Mike Drewery<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize if it seemed I was painting with too broad of a brush. It seems most group labels get defined by their most radical elements. Being an Independent Baptist which to some people infers Hyles/Ruckman type beliefs gives me empathy for you.