Hyper-Calvinism

[Van]

If you review on line discussions, you will find many explanations of Hyper-Calvinism.

1) They believe in exhaustive determinism, every thought and deed of humanity is predestined. Thus no need to pray, since the outcome
is unalterable.

2) Some say they do not believe in engaging in Evangelism. I think this is a false charge, the dodge is they believe God commanded Evangelism so
they engage in it, even though that does not result in "hastening the day."

3) They believe God is the author of sin, as He is the author of every thought and deed. OTOH, Calvinism teaches it is a mystery as to why this does not make God the author
of sin.

4) Another dodge is that fallen humanity is able to choose which sin or ungodly activity to engage in, so they are responsible to their choice.

It seems harsh, but some simply say Calvinism engages in euphemisms to avoid the logical consequences of their doctrine, whereas the Hyper-Calvinists simply accept them.

So the Bible Study question is:

Does the Bible teach everything is predestined, or do we make choices that alter the outcome of our lives.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Does the Bible teach everything is predestined, or do we make choices that alter the outcome of our lives.

The Bible teaches both (e.g. 1 KIngs 22:34; Proverbs 16:33; John 6:37)

 

[DaveXR650]

Does the Bible teach everything is predestined, or do we make choices that alter the outcome of our lives.

We certainly make choices that are real and that alter the outcome of our lives. God knew those choices beforehand and either approved or at least allowed the choice to play out. All prayers made by us an others, instead of not being of any value, were of great value, and taken into consideration and heard by God, and were part of the unfolding of what then happened and it is indeed all according to God's overall plan, although, it may not be according to God's revealed will for us, depending on what it is we are talking about. Ultimately, God's will and purpose will be done as Martin said, and the confessions say, yet no violence was done to our free will.

Hyper-Calvinists, because they simplify everything into absolute predestination instead of using scripture do have a simpler and easier to understand explanation than the confessions offer which do require both and do appeal to mystery. It should be pointed out that a true believer in the sovereignty of human free will cannot explain how even God can truly know a future choice that is truly free and outside of God's sovereignty and as such does not yet exist. They must also explain how there can ever be a prophesy that really must come true and how a certain person can ever be any type of a chosen vessel for God's purpose since it truly must depend on their free choices which have not been decided yet.

So they are left with various views of God being outside of time or some type of Molinism, where God knows all possible free choices not yet made and the resulting possible outcomes of each and is able to take this "middle knowledge" and work with it to accomplish his will while at the same time allowing true, autonomous freedom to his creatures.

 

[Van]

The Bible teaches both (e.g. 1 KIngs 22:34; Proverbs 16:33; John 6:37)

If I understand your unstated position, 1 Kings 22:34 indicates God allows actions to occur at random, thus not predestined.

And, again if I understand your unstated position, John 6:37 indicates God predestines everything. However, since John 6:37 teaches no such thing, I expect no help. Perhaps other verses can be found that support nothing happens by chance?

 

[Van]

We certainly make choices that are real and that alter the outcome of our lives. God knew those choices beforehand and either approved or at least allowed the choice to play out. All prayers made by us an others, instead of not being of any value, were of great value, and taken into consideration and heard by God, and were part of the unfolding of what then happened and it is indeed all according to God's overall plan, although, it may not be according to God's revealed will for us, depending on what it is we are talking about. Ultimately, God's will and purpose will be done as Martin said, and the confessions say, yet no violence was done to our free will.

Hyper-Calvinists, because they simplify everything into absolute predestination instead of using scripture do have a simpler and easier to understand explanation than the confessions offer which do require both and do appeal to mystery. It should be pointed out that a true believer in the sovereignty of human free will cannot explain how even God can truly know a future choice that is truly free and outside of God's sovereignty and as such does not yet exist. They must also explain how there can ever be a prophesy that really must come true and how a certain person can ever be any type of a chosen vessel for God's purpose since it truly must depend on their free choices which have not been decided yet.

So they are left with various views of God being outside of time or some type of Molinism, where God knows all possible free choices not yet made and the resulting possible outcomes of each and is able to take this "middle knowledge" and work with it to accomplish his will while at the same time allowing true, autonomous freedom to his creatures.

Again, leaving aside whether God knows all future occurrences, you seem to accept that scripture teaches all occurrences are not predestined.

And again, setting aside whether God answers some of our prayers by intervening to fulfill our requests, you seem to suggest it is a possibility.

No one has suggested the sovereignty of the human free will, but scripture certainly teaches God can control or limit our choices, such as when He chooses to harden a person's heart.

As far as "prophesy," God is almighty and therefore will cause whatever future occurrence to occur that He chooses to cause.

Thanks for addressing the issue.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If I understand your unstated position, 1 Kings 22:34 indicates God allows actions to occur at random, thus not predestined.

You don't understand. Read 2 Kings 21:17 through to 22:34.

And, again if I understand your unstated position, John 6:37 indicates God predestines everything. However, since John 6:37 teaches no such thing, I expect no help. Perhaps other verses can be found that support nothing happens by chance?

So what the Lord Jesus is saying is that all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, barring accidents. Is that what you believe?
And again, the lot is cast into the lap, but most (some? many?) decisions come from the LORD. Is that what you believe.

 

[Silverhair]

You don't understand. Read 2 Kings 21:17 through to 22:34.

So what the Lord Jesus is saying is that all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, barring accidents. Is that what you believe?
And again, the lot is cast into the lap, but most (some? many?) decisions come from the LORD. Is that what you believe.

As Joh 6:45 shows us those that hear and learn from the Father in other words hear and believe the gospel message etc will be given to Christ. If they do not believe even through they have heard they will not be given to Christ. Is that what you believe?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As Joh 6:45 shows us those that hear and learn from the Father in other words hear and believe the gospel message etc will be given to Christ. If they do not believe even through they have heard they will not be given to Christ. Is that what you believe?

I do not believe that John 6:45 is in contradiction of John 6:37. Nor are either of them in contradiction of John 6:44. Is that what you believe?

 

[JesusFan]

You don't understand. Read 2 Kings 21:17 through to 22:34.

So what the Lord Jesus is saying is that all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, barring accidents. Is that what you believe?
And again, the lot is cast into the lap, but most (some? many?) decisions come from the LORD. Is that what you believe.

Is it not the truth that all that happens either happened due to God directly causing or indirectly allowing for it, no such as think as "random luck?"

 

[KenH]

"Ultimately, if you affirm that every aspect of salvation is accomplished entirely by Christ alone because of God’s sovereign grace alone and experienced solely through the gift of faith, you will probably at some point in your life be labeled a hyper-calvinist. At first this charge might cause you grief because you might have and probably have heard a lot of bad stuff concerning “hyper-calvinism.” You might have heard that there are “mean old hypers” that don’t believe in preaching the gospel at all. It is true there have been some people in history who have made this mistake. There are others who have turned God’s grace into a cause for lasciviousness as well as some who have stated that men are saved to glorification but not necessarily the experience of salvation in time. These are ugly errors that should draw the charge of false doctrine, but not necessarily hyper-calvinism. Almost all of the authors I admire: John Gill, J.C. Philpot, William Gadsby, William Huntington, Augustus Toplady, Gilbert Beebe and Silas Durand to name a few are considered by most to have been hyper-calvinists, but none as far as I’m concerned stood by the errors previously mentioned. These men were honorable Gospel stewards and deserve our respect, and to be numbered amongst them is in my mind to be considered an honor. So while I specifically don’t approve of the label, “hyper-calvinist,” as I personally do not believe that the doctrines of grace have any business being named after a man, I am honored to be known as such. That is my confession, and I call upon all who agree with the doctrines briefly described in this paper to make this confession as well."

- excerpt from an article by Brandan Kraft - Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist - Brandan Kraft

 

[JD731]

As Joh 6:45 shows us those that hear and learn from the Father in other words hear and believe the gospel message etc will be given to Christ. If they do not believe even through they have heard they will not be given to Christ. Is that what you believe?

Nobody, I say nobody, understood what Jesus meant when he dealt with the Jews in Caperaum in John 6. When the gospel accounts closed with the death of Jesus Christ, not a single person believed he would die and rise from the dead. Not even one. Logic and reason from the scriptures teaches those of us who read and study the scriptures instead of people who have begun religious movements based on unorthodox dictionaries that they have created in their own minds.

Those who came to him came to him believing two things about him that were required for them to be his, but they did not have any faith in the gospel that saves all men everywhere, and that is defined in 1 Cor 15: 1-4. It is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Nobody preached that during the ministry of Jesus Christ, not even Jesus himself.

The two things that were required of Israel only is that they believe that he is the son of God and the second thing is that he is the Messiah that had been promised to Israel.

The blindness of Calvinism and hyper Calvinism is self inflicted. It is a failure of logic and reason and faith in what God has said and revealed about himself and us. It is an introduction of a new way to read scripture. It is unbelief.

Jesus would have a prophecy for Capernaum later when he addressed this crowd. Here it is.

John 6:17
And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

Mt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works (like feeding 5,000 and walking on water), which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Peter got what Jesus was teaching and what he was requiring his followers to believe, that he was the Messiah and the son of God; He said so.

Jn 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Here is what Peter said some time later when Jesus asked him to believe something that was not required but just information at that time and something he had not told him previously.

Mt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Okay, so far so good.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Peter's reaction to this gospel: Total rejection, enough to rebuke God.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.


Back to what Jesus said
Mt 16: 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Even later; some new information and his disciples reaction;
22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Mark would report it this way;

31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Logic, reason, faith, context. preparation, prophecy the unfolding redemptive plan of God goes a long way in understanding the mind of God and how he thinks. His plan is made know to us through words, not visions and dreams and special revelations. We must believe his words and we must refrain from twisting them to suit our own lusts.

Everyone since the cross is required to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ as defined in 1 Cor 15 now or they will not be saved and receive the gift of God, which is his Spirit and eternal life..

Than you Heavenly Father for you great salvation through your son Jesus Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Nobody preached that during the ministry of Jesus Christ, not even Jesus himself.

Mark 10:33-34. "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes, and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles; and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and spit upon Him, and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again" (cf. also Mark 8:31; 9:30-32; John 12:32).

 

[JD731]

Mark 10:33-34. "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes, and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles; and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and spit upon Him, and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again" (cf. also Mark 8:31; 9:30-32; John 12:32).

This is after Mark chapter 9 and the transfiguration and when Jesus gets to Jerusalem, there are eight days of his earthly ministry left until his redemption is completed with his rising from the dead. This gospel of salvation that has power to save all sinners from the penalty of their sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire, was not known or preached or believed until then. If you are saved it is not because God chose you in eternity past but because you have heard about this man Jesus and put you faith and trust that what he did there at the cross was for you peronally and you have believed the promise of the Father that he will pardon your death sentence by coming to him on bended knee in the name of his son, Jesus Christ.

Jn 20:3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

What an expectant and joyful reaction, no?

10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

Here is the reaction of the resurrected Jesus later to their pitiful reaction;

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

 

[Scarlett O.]

If you review on line discussions, you will find many explanations of Hyper-Calvinism.

1) They believe in exhaustive determinism, every thought and deed of humanity is predestined. Thus no need to pray, since the outcome
is unalterable.

2) Some say they do not believe in engaging in Evangelism. I think this is a false charge, the dodge is they believe God commanded Evangelism so
they engage in it, even though that does not result in "hastening the day."

3) They believe God is the author of sin, as He is the author of every thought and deed. OTOH, Calvinism teaches it is a mystery as to why this does not make God the author
of sin.

4) Another dodge is that fallen humanity is able to choose which sin or ungodly activity to engage in, so they are responsible to their choice.

It seems harsh, but some simply say Calvinism engages in euphemisms to avoid the logical consequences of their doctrine, whereas the Hyper-Calvinists simply accept them.

So the Bible Study question is:

Does the Bible teach everything is predestined, or do we make choices that alter the outcome of our lives.

My initial encounter with the reformed was about 25 years ago. In my opinion, they were "hyper".

One gentleman made an announcement that his and his wife's son had been born. He said, "Let's welcome one more of God's elect."

If he believes his son was BORN saved - I can only take it to mean he believes his baby is saved because HE is saved. It left a permanent and horrid taste in my mouth.

 

[kyredneck]

"Ultimately, if you affirm that every aspect of salvation is accomplished entirely by Christ alone because of God’s sovereign grace alone and experienced solely through the gift of faith, you will probably at some point in your life be labeled a hyper-calvinist.

Spot on.

 

[Van]

You don't understand. Read 2 Kings 21:17 through to 22:34.

So what the Lord Jesus is saying is that all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, barring accidents. Is that what you believe?
And again, the lot is cast into the lap, but most (some? many?) decisions come from the LORD. Is that what you believe.

Sorry Sir, but you need to take a position.

My position is scripture does not say, nor suggest that everything is predestined. And two God did not "give" any individual to Christ before He credits their faith as righteousness.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is after Mark chapter 9 and the transfiguration and when Jesus gets to Jerusalem, there are eight days of his earthly ministry left until his redemption is completed with his rising from the dead.

First of all, you didn't mention any of this when you made your first post.
Secondly, Mark 8:31-33 occurs immediately after Peter's confession of the Lord Jesus as the Christ, and before the transfiguration. We are told that 'He spoke this word openly.' That the disciples didn't get the message is true, but not germaine to your post

Nobody preached that during the ministry of Jesus Christ, not even Jesus himself.

Yes He did

 

[Van]

My initial encounter with the reformed was about 25 years ago. In my opinion, they were "hyper".

One gentleman made an announcement that his and his wife's son had been born. He said, "Let's welcome one more of God's elect."

If he believes his son was BORN saved - I can only take it to mean he believes his baby is saved because HE is saved. It left a permanent and horrid taste in my mouth.

I agree, we all must be born anew. This is because we were all born in iniquity, in a sinful state of separation, starting our condemned due to unbelief. Blood-line theology is nonsense.

 

[percho]

And why did Peter believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ the Son of the Living God?

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Matt 16:17

God the Father of the flesh and blood Son, Jesus, revealed it to him.

God opened his mind unto belief.

 

[JesusFan]

Sorry Sir, but you need to take a position.

My position is scripture does not say, nor suggest that everything is predestined. And two God did not "give" any individual to Christ before He credits their faith as righteousness.

They are saved due to election/[predestination, regenerate, saving faith all Free Gifts to His own