Hyper Calvinism (Again ?)
First, let me state that I will NOT answer any post that delivers a negative and/or sarcastic slant about Primitive Baptists to whom I belong, or to any who posts anecdotes or hearsays about PB ministers who are no longer around and therefore unable to speak out.
This happened in one of the threads about the G C and I stopped posting.
Second, let me state that I disagree with the statement highlighted, italicized and underlined above. I do not believe there is a "Great Commission", nor that this, if it did exist at all, was handed down to the church. I believe that there was a commission, handed down and continuing, a directive, an order, and this order was given only to the Apostles, and from them, to any who will later on be called by the Savior to the ministry, and that the commission was NOT to spread the gospel in order that men may be saved, but to preach the gospel that those ordained to eternal life may hear the fulfillment of their salvation, and make them learners and disciples of Christ, called out to be a body glorifying God in their midst amid a crooked and perverse world.
That being said I do not believe that all who are elect and foreordained unto eternal life will hear the gospel in their lifetime nor become disciples and members of a gospel church, but such non-hearing does not damn them because they were elect from eternity past and Christ alone secured their salvation.
Also, as a Primitive Baptist, I believe that the charge to preach the gospel to all who will hear still exists, and the child of God whom He separates unto the ministry, is obligated to GO IMMEDIATELY AND preach the good news, money or no money, board or no board, supporters or no supporters. : That Christ came to save sinners. But that primarily the duty of the preacher or pastor is to the church, once organized, if such a church were not in existence before he came to where the Lord sent him.
All these being laid down, let me now focus on the words highlighted in blue (in fairness to the original poster in the original thread, these were not his position).
I agree with all but number 4, and that only because I have never heard of such a thing as common grace, and if someone will explain that to me, then I can decide whether or not I agree or disagree.
Will the venerable learneds of this board pray tell this orangutan turned crosseyed cat how :
1. the gospel call applies to all sinners (by this I take it that all sinners mean all mankind). If you insist, where are the Scriptures, and then expose on that Scripture;
2. If faith is the duty of every sinner, is this sinner a redeemed, or unredeemed sinner ? If what it means to you is a 'redeemed sinner' then we are in agreement, but if it is an 'unredeemed sinner', then we part ways, unless you have irrefutable proof texts.
3. Where are the Scriptures that there is an "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect ? For that matter, where is the "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mecy to the elect ?
4. -
5. Where is the Scripture that God has any love at all for the non-elect ? Those not His people ?
Thank you, and if we can avoid sarcasm and gall, I think we will have a lively chat. :smilewinkgrin:
Oh, yes, ps: If there are challenge posts at all, it may take a while for me to respond, but unless you posted a sarcastic post about PB's living and dead, there will be a response. It may be I have gone out to work, find work, or take my wife out to dinner, or my wife took me out to dinner, or face whatever it is that this fallen world throws at us....
........ have you heard from <SNIP>? Were they banned or something? I miss <SNIP>. Anyway, after I had posted that about HC being defined by practice and not doctrine, I repented. With that premise, we would have to label most of the churches in existence as hyper-calvinist, since most churches, regardless of their theology, do not practice the GC. I think you've narrowed it down rightly, that HC has a particular view of the GC - that the GC has been fulfilled during the apostolic age and today the gospel is not to be preached to the world, only the church. Mr. Johnson's definitions of HC make me nervous because I think he overreaches into doctrines, which although may be unorthodox, nevertheless are not necessarily associated with anti-GC. Here is his outline from the gty website:
A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:
Let's take faith-duty for example. I don't see how one could define hypercalvinism with such a weedy subject. It's over reaching IMO.
- Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
- Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
- Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
- Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
- Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.
<SNIP>
First, let me state that I will NOT answer any post that delivers a negative and/or sarcastic slant about Primitive Baptists to whom I belong, or to any who posts anecdotes or hearsays about PB ministers who are no longer around and therefore unable to speak out.
This happened in one of the threads about the G C and I stopped posting.
Second, let me state that I disagree with the statement highlighted, italicized and underlined above. I do not believe there is a "Great Commission", nor that this, if it did exist at all, was handed down to the church. I believe that there was a commission, handed down and continuing, a directive, an order, and this order was given only to the Apostles, and from them, to any who will later on be called by the Savior to the ministry, and that the commission was NOT to spread the gospel in order that men may be saved, but to preach the gospel that those ordained to eternal life may hear the fulfillment of their salvation, and make them learners and disciples of Christ, called out to be a body glorifying God in their midst amid a crooked and perverse world.
That being said I do not believe that all who are elect and foreordained unto eternal life will hear the gospel in their lifetime nor become disciples and members of a gospel church, but such non-hearing does not damn them because they were elect from eternity past and Christ alone secured their salvation.
Also, as a Primitive Baptist, I believe that the charge to preach the gospel to all who will hear still exists, and the child of God whom He separates unto the ministry, is obligated to GO IMMEDIATELY AND preach the good news, money or no money, board or no board, supporters or no supporters. : That Christ came to save sinners. But that primarily the duty of the preacher or pastor is to the church, once organized, if such a church were not in existence before he came to where the Lord sent him.
All these being laid down, let me now focus on the words highlighted in blue (in fairness to the original poster in the original thread, these were not his position).
I agree with all but number 4, and that only because I have never heard of such a thing as common grace, and if someone will explain that to me, then I can decide whether or not I agree or disagree.
Will the venerable learneds of this board pray tell this orangutan turned crosseyed cat how :
1. the gospel call applies to all sinners (by this I take it that all sinners mean all mankind). If you insist, where are the Scriptures, and then expose on that Scripture;
2. If faith is the duty of every sinner, is this sinner a redeemed, or unredeemed sinner ? If what it means to you is a 'redeemed sinner' then we are in agreement, but if it is an 'unredeemed sinner', then we part ways, unless you have irrefutable proof texts.
3. Where are the Scriptures that there is an "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect ? For that matter, where is the "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mecy to the elect ?
4. -
5. Where is the Scripture that God has any love at all for the non-elect ? Those not His people ?
Thank you, and if we can avoid sarcasm and gall, I think we will have a lively chat. :smilewinkgrin:
Oh, yes, ps: If there are challenge posts at all, it may take a while for me to respond, but unless you posted a sarcastic post about PB's living and dead, there will be a response. It may be I have gone out to work, find work, or take my wife out to dinner, or my wife took me out to dinner, or face whatever it is that this fallen world throws at us....
Last edited by a moderator: