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Hyper-Dispensationalism
- Thread starter MikeinGhana
- Start date
I have an Old Testament and a New Testament. Whereas dispensationalists break that down into seven chronological events.Originally posted by AresMan:
I don't think you have to swallow the whole dispensational pill. I think you can be dispensational with dispensationalism
Thanks Calvi, so you are not a general rule?
Thanks ituttut. Are we not all “dispensationalists" I could take these as rhetorical questions but I find that I cannot answer you. Am I a dispensationalist? I believe we are in a covenant relationship which is different in degree from the OT, "I will pour out my Spirit on all men..." For example but at the same time I believe my seat is booked for the Wedding Supper along with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Are we waiting to be "raptured", or waiting to go through the "tribulation" Is it a dispensation either way? An ordering, adiministrating? We have the glory of the tribulation ahead of us.
I don't think you have to swallow the whole dispensational pill. I think you can be dispensational with dispensationalism AresMan.
Adam and Eve were under two, first works then grace?
john.
Thanks ituttut. Are we not all “dispensationalists" I could take these as rhetorical questions but I find that I cannot answer you. Am I a dispensationalist? I believe we are in a covenant relationship which is different in degree from the OT, "I will pour out my Spirit on all men..." For example but at the same time I believe my seat is booked for the Wedding Supper along with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Are we waiting to be "raptured", or waiting to go through the "tribulation" Is it a dispensation either way? An ordering, adiministrating? We have the glory of the tribulation ahead of us.
I don't think you have to swallow the whole dispensational pill. I think you can be dispensational with dispensationalism AresMan.
Adam and Eve were under two, first works then grace?
john.
Calvibaptist
New Member
I think I used to be a general rule! But alot has changed for me theologically since I first stepped foot on the DTS campus 13 years ago.
I moved from synergistic salvation (which I didn't realize I believed) to monergistic salvation (Semi-Arminianism to Calvinism). I moved from Classical Dispensationalism to Progressive Dispensationalism. Now, I'm not sure I could be called a Progressive Dispy, either. I'm somewhere in No-Man's land, not knowing WHAT to make of certain passages. Maybe you would call me a Historical Pre-Millenialist, because they didn't talk about a rapture, believed Christ was coming back before the millenium, and saw a connection (although difference) between Israel and the Church.
Hello Calvi.
I think I used to be a general rule! I think I was once but I was only passing through.
Do you know too much? I used to think Christian a long word.
Within a week of becoming a Christian I learnt that God loved me from eternity and nothing that had happened to me was accidental. I knew nothing about Christianity before but had the idea that one should have an haircut and wear a suit.
I believe Israel was the physical representaion of the Church. Spiritual Israel should pay attention to physical Israel's rebukes cause they are often meant for us. A stiff-necked people.
john.
I think I used to be a general rule! I think I was once but I was only passing through.
Do you know too much?
I used to think Christian a long word.Within a week of becoming a Christian I learnt that God loved me from eternity and nothing that had happened to me was accidental. I knew nothing about Christianity before but had the idea that one should have an haircut and wear a suit.
I believe Israel was the physical representaion of the Church. Spiritual Israel should pay attention to physical Israel's rebukes cause they are often meant for us.
A stiff-necked people.john.
Calvibaptist
New Member
I think it's more of a case that I'm realizing I don't know near as much as I though I did.Originally posted by johnp.:
Do you know too much?
Ephesians 3. Paul says specifically something about the "Dispensation of the grace of God". You'll not find anything about a "dispensation of certain...anything else", I do not believe, save for a dispensation of the gospel given Paul. Other (dispensations/ "ages") are perhaps implied by Ephesians 3 (I beieve they are) but they are not named, there. The only other one 'named' is the dispensation of the fullness of times, I believe specifically.
In His grace,
Ed
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Mike, I have a friend, an IFB pastor, that I correspond with occassionaly that believes that only Paul's writings are relevant and applicable for the church today. He flat out told me I was wasting my time preaching a message to my church from the Old Testament or from the Gospels.
It really aggrivates him that my DMin project is centering on preaching in the Old Testament
Roman 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Not that it would make any difference. Hyper-dispensationalists are ? well they are!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The major difference between progressive dispensationalism and classic dispensationalism is their view of the Church.
Classic dispensationalism incorrectly teaches that God has two people, an earthly people-Israel, and a heavenly people-the Church, and never the twain shall meet.
Progressive dispensationalism is moving away from this false teaching as well as the pre-trib rapture. They are very close to what is called covenant or historic premillennialism.
Hyper-dispensationalists are way out in the field somewhere, apparently believing that only the prison epistles of Paul are for the Church.
Charles Ryrie, a classic dispensationalist, in his book Dispensationalism briefly discusses all three views.
I view "Dispensation" as a period of time when leadership/compliance is conducted in a certain manner, the differences between the OT/NT is a case in point.
"NO MAN" comes to the father except by Jesus, OT or NT.
The Church only "Spiritually" crucifies the "old man" of sin, (flesh)
During the trib, anyone chosing Jesus and refusing to worship the "image" will "LITERALLY" be killed, or "Crucified",
those who trust in the "passover lamb" are the "FIRSTBORN", which the "passover lamb" will protect from this "literal death" as it did in the OT, (pre trib rapture) I consider that a major portion of Gods "GRACE" in not requiring us to literal die as those will in the trib.
Beyond the seven major dispensations, which the Jews teach, I'm not familar with those.
You wanna' run that one by me again????
I think I might of missed it on the first pass.
Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Try this site.
http://www.aish.com
It's all "Jewish" and much of what they teach about the OT, you'll have to "search" the site for the "seven dispensations", Lord knows I have a hard time "spellen English", much less "Hebrew".
They have some really good articles on the OT, Adam/Eve in the garden is the current article.
A fast search turn this up, it isn't what I'm looking for, but "related".
The Ten Sefirot are:
Keter - crown,
Chochmah - wisdom,
Binah - understanding,
Chessed - kindness,
Gevura - strength,
Tiferet - beauty,
Netzach - victory,
Hod - awe,
Yesod - foundation,
Malchut - monarchy.
Look under "Spirituality", Kabbala 101.
[ February 24, 2006, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]
Very good point AresMan, but law is tied to Grace, and without law Grace cannot save. It is by Grace that we are saved, and faith must be present in every dispensation with the Law. We can find many answers in Paul’s letter to the Hebrews. A change in the Priesthood, changes the Law. All before were drawn near to God, but could not be in Him, while the Priest was on the earth.Originally posted by AresMan:
I don't think you have to swallow the whole dispensational pill. I think you can be dispensational with dispensationalism
In my dispensational belief I believe in the Triune God, being One God as do you and I’m sure all here. The terms I us somewhat put a limit on God, but we are limited down here. He is God the Father (operational from the position of Grace). He is God the Son (Administrative, The Word “Law”). He is God the Holy Spirit (That which Works. The Power, giver of Gifts).
I really never understood in clarity The Holy Trinity until I read the writings of Paul. (ASV)I Corinthians 12:4-6, ”Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5. And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord. 6. And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all.” We see God here is not limited, and see the heterogeneity in each; The Holy Spirit, The Son, and The Father.
I stand in Christ of the dispensational gospel that Christ gave to Paul. Christ gave to Paul something different than the gospel of Grace saves by Faith, with Works required by all since the fall, until...
We see Paul illustrating this in Hebrews 11, as works were required of all from Abel until we see and are told of that other gospel. Those of old all died in faith not receiving the promises, not being made perfect until God provided something better for us. What is it that God provides for we today? To believe the gospel that Christ revealed to Paul which is “when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we will be saved.” The gospel of Paul that He received from Christ in heaven is we are saved by Grace through faith, and not in connection with any work we have done.
As Hebrews explains all those looking ahead were saved by faith to receive a good report through faith that would come. How are we saved? Through/b] the faith of Jesus Christ - ”and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith”, Philippians 3:9(ASV). Christian faith, ituttut
Blaising is now at SWBTS as a Southern Baptist. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello gb93433. If I understand what you are saying a few, one or two, Progressive Dispensationalist (I don’t know if they are or where) give merit to bringing Covenant Theology into Paul’s gospel given to him by Christ.
This happened thousands of years ago, and is nothing new. Paul said all in Asia had left him. For what did they leave him? Covenant belief that came via the “troublers”. But there has always been a remnant that believes Christ from heaven.
If by Covenant is meant the gift presented to us, and we believe and accept that gift, then Yes. But if by Covenant is meant that Old Covenant between God and His nation, then No as shown in Romans 9:4-5, ”who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5. whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen”.
God will have Mercy on Whom He will have Mercy, and When it is applied will be How it is applied. God also in His Mercy tells What we are to do to receive this Mercy. Do we accept the free Gift, or come by Covenant of Old working toward that which has already come?
Christian faith, ituttut
This was originally posted by ituttut:
Paul specifically asks, "Why then, the law?"
Answer: "It was added because of transgressions, 'til the seed (Christ) should come."
In HIs grace,
Ed
Uh- not quite so fast here! "The Law" was not around before Sinai, and I'm pretty sure Moses was already saved then, and I know Abraham, Noah, Enoch and Abel all were.
Paul specifically asks, "Why then, the law?"
Answer: "It was added because of transgressions, 'til the seed (Christ) should come."
In HIs grace,
Ed
QUOTE]Originally posted by EdSutton:
This was originally posted by ituttut:
Paul specifically asks, "Why then, the law?"
Answer: "It was added because of transgressions, 'til the seed (Christ) should come."
In HIs grace,
Ed [/QUOTE]
Hello Ed. Are you one of those that say the gospel has always been the same? Will this not disprove that belief?
Are you saying God quickly made up Law to give to Moses? If so then all before Moses would be saved, not just those you mention. If this were so then the Bible cannot be trusted for it says only 8 souls were saved for Noah believed God, and they were brought over to this side of the deluge. Your quote of Paul only shows the dispensation when the “Law” became known. This was a mystery before it became known, but it had always applied. Now the nation of Israel will have no excuse, for they have been told.
I see you believe the gospel of Paul. This is the reason I spend so much time in His Epistles, for we find New information, and then find information that explains what may have been shown in other places, not correctly understood. In this way we are allowed to see and understand the Whole of the Bible. This is just one more reason that we should believe the gospel of Paul that Christ from heaven gave to him an understanding of dispensations, and to us today a dispensational gospel, I Corinthians 9:17; Ephesians 1:10 then 3:2; Colossians 1:25. These all look to be very straightforward scriptures, with meaning not easily misunderstood.
When we say the gospel has always been the same, we can only say that because we can (but most will not admit) see the beginning from the end. We know the “whole” story now, but act like we knew from the beginning, and God has told us nothing new. At some point shouldn’t we admit we had no idea what He was talking about, just as those that were with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry?
We believe without question that God told and gave to Moses the Law and incorporated that information into our thinking, and say Now we know when the Law began. It did begin for Israel in that dispensation, at that time and for man, but it existed and was applied from the beginning.
Why do we then reject that God told and gave to Paul the gospel to the Gentile and Jew and incorporate that information into our thinking and say Now we know when the Body of Christ began. It did begin for all on Damascus Road in this dispensation, and applies while we live, and salvation by the blood of Christ applies from the beginning.
Take the Law from God, and we have no God. We are left to judge ourselves. Paul gives illustration of how we are to approach our salvation. It is Spiritual. Romans 7:22-25 informs we delight in God’s law Spiritually (in our minds) but the fallen nature in us is the law of sin. These two are at war with each other. Verses 24 and 25 give us our Hope, and how we Today are saved.
Who is going to win this War? With God’s help is it going to be Me? Christ from heaven revealed to Paul who is going to deliver us from these sinful bodies, and whoever this is that is going to deliver us from these bodies is not going to need any of our works, or our help. What is His Name? Thank God that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord to save us from these sinful bodies. The Word of God is the Law of God by which we live, and He is before the beginning
Christian faith, ituttut
This was originally posted by ituttut:
Uh- not quite so fast here! "The Law" was not around before Sinai, and I'm pretty sure Moses was already saved then, and I know Abraham, Noah, Enoch and Abel all were.
Paul specifically asks, "Why then, the law?"
Answer: "It was added because of transgressions, 'til the seed (Christ) should come."
In HIs grace,
Ed [/QUOTE]
Hello Ed. Are you one of those that say the gospel has always been the same? Will this not disprove that belief?
Are you saying God quickly made up Law to give to Moses? If so then all before Moses would be saved, not just those you mention. If this were so then the Bible cannot be trusted for it says only 8 souls were saved for Noah believed God, and they were brought over to this side of the deluge. Your quote of Paul only shows the dispensation when the “Law” became known. This was a mystery before it became known, but it had always applied. Now the nation of Israel will have no excuse, for they have been told.
I see you believe the gospel of Paul. This is the reason I spend so much time in His Epistles, for we find New information, and then find information that explains what may have been shown in other places, not correctly understood. In this way we are allowed to see and understand the Whole of the Bible. This is just one more reason that we should believe the gospel of Paul that Christ from heaven gave to him an understanding of dispensations, and to us today a dispensational gospel, I Corinthians 9:17; Ephesians 1:10 then 3:2; Colossians 1:25. These all look to be very straightforward scriptures, with meaning not easily misunderstood.
When we say the gospel has always been the same, we can only say that because we can (but most will not admit) see the beginning from the end. We know the “whole” story now, but act like we knew from the beginning, and God has told us nothing new. At some point shouldn’t we admit we had no idea what He was talking about, just as those that were with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry?
We believe without question that God told and gave to Moses the Law and incorporated that information into our thinking, and say Now we know when the Law began. It did begin for Israel in that dispensation, at that time and for man, but it existed and was applied from the beginning.
Why do we then reject that God told and gave to Paul the gospel to the Gentile and Jew and incorporate that information into our thinking and say Now we know when the Body of Christ began. It did begin for all on Damascus Road in this dispensation, and applies while we live, and salvation by the blood of Christ applies from the beginning.
Take the Law from God, and we have no God. We are left to judge ourselves. Paul gives illustration of how we are to approach our salvation. It is Spiritual. Romans 7:22-25 informs we delight in God’s law Spiritually (in our minds) but the fallen nature in us is the law of sin. These two are at war with each other. Verses 24 and 25 give us our Hope, and how we Today are saved.
Who is going to win this War? With God’s help is it going to be Me? Christ from heaven revealed to Paul who is going to deliver us from these sinful bodies, and whoever this is that is going to deliver us from these bodies is not going to need any of our works, or our help. What is His Name? Thank God that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord to save us from these sinful bodies. The Word of God is the Law of God by which we live, and He is before the beginning
Christian faith, ituttut
Here is an article on hyper-dispensationalism.
http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm#ch1
I have debated these types on the old Walter Martin board years ago, and they believe that the Gospel changed when Paul got saved. They also don't believe that Baptism is not of any use today.
http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm#ch1
I have debated these types on the old Walter Martin board years ago, and they believe that the Gospel changed when Paul got saved. They also don't believe that Baptism is not of any use today.
MikeinGhana
New Member
So they do believe that baptism is useful today? Double negatives confuse me!!
Hello Mike.
These brethren, by a process of sophistical reasoning, try to prove that baptism belonged only to an earlier dispensation and was in some sense meritorious, as though it had in itself saving virtue, but that since the dispensation of grace has been fully revealed, there is no place for baptism, because of changed conditions for salvation. To state this argument is but to expose its fallacy. http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm#ch7
According to the article Jack gave they do not believe baptism has any worth today or since Paul wrote from prison.
I'll have a proper read of that later thanks Jack. Is there a lot of this about?
john.
These brethren, by a process of sophistical reasoning, try to prove that baptism belonged only to an earlier dispensation and was in some sense meritorious, as though it had in itself saving virtue, but that since the dispensation of grace has been fully revealed, there is no place for baptism, because of changed conditions for salvation. To state this argument is but to expose its fallacy. http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm#ch7
According to the article Jack gave they do not believe baptism has any worth today or since Paul wrote from prison.
I'll have a proper read of that later thanks Jack. Is there a lot of this about?
john.
I suppose that it's getting more wide acceptance.Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello Mike.
These brethren, by a process of sophistical reasoning, try to prove that baptism belonged only to an earlier dispensation and was in some sense meritorious, as though it had in itself saving virtue, but that since the dispensation of grace has been fully revealed, there is no place for baptism, because of changed conditions for salvation. To state this argument is but to expose its fallacy. http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm#ch7
According to the article Jack gave they do not believe baptism has any worth today or since Paul wrote from prison.
I'll have a proper read of that later thanks Jack. Is there a lot of this about?
john.
One teacher of this is a fellow named Joel Finck.
Mike. Sorry about the double negative. These people don't believe that baptism should be practiced at all today.