Hyper-Dispensationalism

[ituttut]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
exiled to heaven???

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
exiled to heaven???

I believe we can see this in such places as John 7:33-34, ”Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. 34. Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.” His life was taken, but He gave it, being exiled to heaven. He knew where He was going for a King must have a Kingdom. He will return from exile and have His Kingdom.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[standingfirminChrist]

He was not exiled

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
standingfirminChrist,

ituttut's doctrine has no place for us in the
Plan of God for His People when Christ appears.
______________________________________________
"Revelation is about God and His people. He is not coming back for us, but for Israel".
______________________________________________

And so, out of desperation, she/he now wonders
whether it is I who doesn't believe in the Rapture?! LOL.

Mel

The rapture occurs before His second coming, so it would seem you do not believe in the rapture, for we in the Body of Christ are assured of not entering into the Great Tribulation, of which you believe you will do.

You either believe you will be raptured, or you won’t.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
He was not exiled

Amen! Thought I heard someting about I go to prepare a place for YOU, or something like that!
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Isn't what is commonly referred to as the tribulation spoken of as JACOB'S trouble?

I don't recall reading anywhere about it being Christ's trouble.

And what exactly does the Lord Jesus mean when he speaks to one church about I will keep you from the hour of trial or testing, or something like that in Rev. 2 or 3, addressing one of the churches? I don't have my Bible in my hand at the minute to look up the specific verses on all these references, so am pulling them out of my memory.

Please don't hold me to a verbatim quote on these.
In his grace,
Ed

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
ituttut versus Jesus:

ituttut disagrees with Jesus that "He will gather
the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great
tribulation" Mark 13:24-27.

This is His Second coming back to earth when all will see him. Those of earth do not see Him when He “catches us up in the air”. This dispensation will then be over.

______________________________________________

Here is how the Dispies disagreed with Jesus
prior to the 70's:

"Until the 70's they taught that `one will be taken' in the rapture BEFORE the start of the Great Tribulation and UNbelievers will be `left
behind'"!

ITUT agrees with this former Dispy contradiction of Jesus by saying we will be "taken BEFORE" the great tribulation; not AFTER as Jesus taught! He/she agrees with the OLD pre-seventies' theory:

Amen, for you are talking about what Christ revealed to Paul, which makes Jesus Christ un-contradictory. What Christ taught Paul from heaven, He did not reveal while He was on earth. Why do you not believe such passages as Romans 16:25?

_______________________________________________

"Isn’t that what His Word teaches for those in the Body of Christ, i.e. we will be “caught to Him in the air? Do you believe only the Old Testament"?
_______________________________________________

Why do you suddenly retrocede to the O T ?????

Didn’t Jesus live in the Old Testament. He had to for it was prophesied, and He had to fulfill Prophecy. Jesus lived under the Law of Moses just as did David, Jonah, and all the rest.

I believe what Jesus and Paul taught. Paul
taught "by the word of the Lord that we who are alive and remain until the Presence of the Lord

(which he said is after tribulation when He comes to deliver us and destroy the wicked "on that day" 2 Thess.1:4-11)

We see in these verses those that trouble the saved will be dealt with by God. Then Paul says come rest with us while we await the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His mighty angels.

Jesus then gives the details in chapter 2 of how it works. When the “man of sin” is revealed (the Great tribulation begins) for we in the Body of Christ will be gone, meaning the Holy Spirit is taken from this world. Then begins that Great Tribulation. The people are believing someone else other than Paul for he says in verse 5, ” Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

The Epistles to the Thessalonians were the first books written by Paul early in his ministry, and these new things were not fully understood (and evidently not by some today). Paul had told them in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 not to be burdened with thinking they would have to go through the tribulation.

The Bible does not contradict itself in important matters, and the only view that will hold up to all scripture is what His Word teaches. It teaches the Body of Christ, dead or alive will be “caught up” to meet our Lord in the air. Those that later die in the Lord are saved differently, in the dispensation they live in. These are certainly comforting words that Paul and Timothy brought to these of Thessalonica.

we will be caught up together with the Dead in Christ to meet them in the air". [Trib-Martyrs are among the "Dead in Christ" and we will meet them at His Presence after the tribulation]!

The comforting words of Paul shows the dead in Christ will go first, then we which are alive. The Body of Christ Church is taken to be meet Him in the air, then the Great Tribulation, and then those slain for the word of God under the altar cry “How long” before judgment. They are told to rest a little longer until the number to be killed is fulfilled – Revelation 6:9-11.

Trib-Saints "die in the Lord". Rev.14:13.
Trib-Martyrs "will come with Jesus". I Th.3:14.

Those in chapter 14 come to the Lord later for their “works” are for their obedience, testimony, patience, and enduring until the end. We are not of necessity of “works”.

Your I Thessalonians reference refers to our “rapture”, and not to establish His kingdom. Your thinking contradicts I Thessalonians 2:19.

ITUT evidently agrees with Dispy doctrine prior
to the 70's before that theory underwent a sudden 180-degree switch so that the ones TAKEN are no longer Believers caught up BEFORE the great tribulation BUT are instead the wicked TAKEN in judgment both during and AFTER the great tribulation!

I agree with Christ from heaven and not theology of man

So ITUT disagrees with the NEW Dispy theory as well as with Jesus Himself ... being a Dispy of the old doctrine that claims Believers will be TAKEN *before* instead of *after* the great tribulation and at the same time denies their new doctrine that Believers after the Rapture will be LEFT to populate the Kingdom for 1000 years ... if they survive.

No matter how many time you repeat yourself, you are still wrong for you believe man instead of His Word.

This incongruous theory would reward faithful Martyrs with "serving God in the temple of heaven for 1000 years" (Rev.7:15-17; 20:4) while demoting faithful survivors to the inglorious duty of bearing children for the 1000-Year Kingdom Dispy.

Both theories contradict the literal words of
Jesus that "He will raise up all believers on
the last day and gather these elect from the
earth to heaven" and,

"while the tribes of earth mourn and beg to escape and to be kept alive and to stand before
the Son of Man,

"He will send the angels to gather us (the elect) out of the 4 winds from all extremities of the heavenS (pl)". John 6:40; Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36; 17:33; Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31.

Amen for those that wish to go through the Tribulation! It is Christ Jesus and His mighty angels that will “grab some of us up to Him in the air”.

Disagree with Jesus to deny the truth. Disagree with both Paul and Jesus to create confusion.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

We do disagree Mel.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ituttut probably does NOT agree with me regarding
"the gathering is not after the tribualtion".

However, Ituttut has taken the moral high-ground and likely would
say to me "I respectuflly disagree". But you sir, you belittle
me attempting to act like you misunderstand everything I say.
Can you not disagree with somebody without churching them?

Mel Miller: //I refuse to humiliate Jesus by accepting your
refusal to agree He will "gather the elect from
earth to heaven after the great tribulation"!//

See. You remind me of the Stewardship committe of the chuch
that prayed: "Lord, you keep that preacher humble and we will
keep him poor"

It would Honour my Lord Jesus if you would extend me the
'I respectfully disagree" instead of badgering me.

I was trying to explain what Jesus said, IMHO.
But apparently you don't want to extend to me any variance
from your opinion. You know, it is no skin off your nose what
Ed beleives. Your demeanor reminds me of the prayer who
said "Lord, you shore got a good man in me"

I said: //Jesus did NOT say `He will gather
the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great
tribulation'". Mark 13:24-27.//

IMHO, and 'with respectful disagreement,
Jesus does NOT say what you said `He will gather
the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great
tribulation'. IHMO and with respctful disagreement,
Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven
BEFORE the Tribulation period.

Before you can follow my argument though, you have to
understand the literary devices of the polysendyton. So if you
are like half the Masters of English whose English professors have
passsed them on without them mastering the subject (or is it that
the professors don't even know?). I'm an engineer, I just happened to
have listened to a preacher/pastor/teaching elder who not only has
a Master of Divenity from S/W Baptist in Fort WOrth Texas but also
a Bachelor of English degree from Oklahoma Baptist University (OBU).
Interesting how a little educatin opens doors to serve the Lord
wider.

Mel Miller: //Neither I nor Jesus gave the "number of days" AFTER the tribulation
before He will gather the elect from earth to heaven.//

Good for Jesus. He knows He will gather the elect/saints BEFORE
the tribualtion period, which the Bible teaches numerous places.

I also asked a question which was painfully ignored:

Mark 13:24a (KJV1769):
But in those days, after that tribulation, ...

How far down does Jesus delineate events that
happen "after that tribulation"?

Apparently, Mel may think the gathering
in Mark 13:27 ) will be 'after that tribulation"???

How about Mark 13:37 ("And what I say to you,
I say to everyone, be alert",
HCSB) does that come "after that tribulation"
or should we be alert before the tribulation?

How about Mark 13:31 ("heaven and earth shall pass
away, but My words will never pass away." /HCSB/)
- is that 'after that tribulation' I think it is true
before, during, and 'after that tribulation'.

So no we see that somewhere between the start of
Mark 13:24 and the end of Mark 13:37 there may be
the start of things that are NOT 'after that tribulation'.
Where that happens is a matter of opinion, not dogma;
personal thought, not devine truth.

I pick this to be covered by Mark 13:24's 'after that
tribulation' - Mark 13:24b-26.
BTW, the HCSB favors those who spred Mark 13:24a through
verse 27 as they completely miss translating
the KAI that starts verse 27 in the Greek.

Now my decision seperates the gathering from the 'Son of Man
coming in clouds with great power and glory.'

BTW, I think the HCSB is wrong with 'in' but should be 'with'.
The clouds with Jesus are not water clouds, but the white robed
saints & elect of the ages in white robes on white horses.
But that is HCSB version stuff.

My descision to seperates the gathering from the 'Son of Man
coming in clouds with great power and glory' has to be supported
by the rest of scripture. And it is. THe jamming of the two
together leads to many contraditions.

FIRST WITNESS:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 (HCSB):
Now concerning the coming of our Lord
Jesus Christ
and
our being gathered to Him;
we ask you, brothers ...

Note two events: (numbered to match the counting below):
1. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2. our being gathered to Him

SECOND WITNESS:
Titus 2:121b-13 (HCSB):
... to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly way
in the present age,
13 while we wait for the BLESSED HOPE
AND
the appearing of the glory of our gret God and Savior,
Jesus Christ.

Note two events:
1. the BLESSED HOPE = gathering of the elect saints
2. the appearing of the glory of our gret God and Savior, Jesus Christ


Mel Miller: //The Greek, which you mention, states that Jesus
Himself, 3rd person singular, "will gather the
elect from the extremities of earth to the
extremities of heaven in the days after the
triulation". Mark 13:24,27.//

Which Greek text, and where can I check it out.
In fact, nowhere is it explicit what you are saying, surely
NOT in Mark 13:24,27. Now where did you get this idea?
From the RCC (roman catholic church)?

Mel Miller: //We seek to honor Jesus and His word. Only you have questioned
what He said by implying the word "after" does not mean "after".//

Sad, you can't even follow the argument.
Well, that is good. You lost the debate back when you
lost your cool with Brother Ituttut
BTW, it is un-Baptist and un-Christian
to call Brother ituttut by the unsolicited moniker ITUT.

Mel Miller: //We seek to honor Jesus and His word. Only you have questioned
what He said by implying the word "after" does not mean "after".//

I didn't even discuss, mention, or imply a discussion about 'after'.
I do not question what Jesus said. The only one discussing those who
question what Jesus said is Mel Miller. Nobody here is questioning
what Jesus said. We are discussing what Jesus meant. Did Jesus talk
about a hopeless situation where the major part of his Children get
killed by a mean guy called 'the beast from the sea'/
Or was Jesus talking about a pretriublation rapture where He saves
hundreds of millions of the elect saints of God (God's children)
from the hell the Antichrist brings to earth?

If the only rapture/gathering of saints is after the Tribulation Period,
this could indicate a MEAN GOD. The very nature of my God is that He
is pure love. While in the multiple judgements (BTW, God may punish some
evil people in MULTIPE judgements, God isn't a double-jepordy avoiding
God) God will punish evil/lost people - God is very sparing of His own
children. Just as You would NOT put a cancer on your child; why
would God put the worse thing that ever happens in the history of
the world (Matther 24:21) on His children? Sorry, but God is God and
I really don't like people changing his nature to fit their
pet eschatology.

Mel Miller dising two different eschatological theories:
//Both theories contradict the literal words of
Jesus that "He will raise up all believers on
the last day and gather these elect from the
earth to heaven" and,

//"while the tribes of earth mourn and beg to escape and to
be kept alive and to stand before
the Son of Man,//

Quotes (") need to go in pairs.
Here you seem to have four different verses muddled together.

Let me see if I can help straighten them out.
BTw, in general your conclusion as to what they mean
are way out of line with what Jesus said.

Matthew 24:30a (HCSB):
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in the sky, and then all the tribes of the land
will morn; ...

As I write this I don't have the exact verse
that is half a quote above about Jesus will "raise up all believers
on the last day. My eschatalogical Doctrine does not deny this
half-verse. Jesus will raise up all men: believers (just) and
the unjust (lost) alike in one day. But that 'day' is 1,000 years long.

And the commings of Jesus collectively called THE SECOND COMING
are both the same day - a 7-year 'week' 'day'.
That happens to be a PRETRIBULATON Rapture verse.
I expect to be raptured. When I see the Lord coming
in power and Glory - I will NOT 'morn'. We, the tribe of
the elect saints: Sons & Daughters of the Light, we will rejoce
when Jesus comes. That is why I think that Matthew 24:29-30
are about the post-trib Coming of the lord in Power and Glory.
And verse 31 is about the pretrib rapture.

Mel Miller: //Are you attempting to change the word of the Lord
or are you outright saying Jesus will NOT "gather
the elect from earth to heaven
after the great tribulation?"//

I am not trying to change the word of the Lord. I use the
same Bible you use. I still don't think that the Lord will
wait until after the fire is over to get His burning children
out of the house. I do not think that the Lord will wait until
his Bride has been humiliated for 7-years to rescue her from
her molestor.

But I do note I have a better track record of quoting the scripture
than Mel Miller has

 

[Mel Miller]

ituttut,

You equate the "servitude" of Gal.4:7 with that
of Rev.22:3. That's the cause of your confusion.

We are sons and no longer "servants" of the Law.
We are sons of God and servants of God.

The Martyrs out of great tribulation will "serve
God in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years".
Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.

The Bride of the Lamb (which you claim does NOT
include us) will "serve God in the New Jerusalem
forever." Rev.21:2,9; Rev.22:3.

When you equate the doctrine of O T "servitude" with that of eternal servitude to God by the sons and Bride of the Lamb (and claim that only Israel is the Bride of the Lamb) you have gone way outside the realm of Biblical truth.

You have challenged me to “show any Scripture that describes us as His Bride since we are only of the Body of Christ”. I repeat what I wrote in
another forum: "Your view makes Jesus the husband
of two wives" by claiming, as you did, "the Book of Revelation doesn’t pointedly say, `Who the Bride is’. It says who the `wife’ is, and I take to mean the Nation of Israel".

You wrongly teach that the "wife" of Rev.19:7 is
the nation of Israel! I just can't understand
how you can claim the Saints in Rev.19 are the nation of Israel and NOT Believers as members of the Bride of the Lamb!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
He was not exiled

Did He not exile Himself? Did His Nation not refuse their King?

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Ituttut probably does NOT agree with me regarding
"the gathering is not after the tribualtion".

Your words Ed E, "Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation period." I agree you understand His Word perfectly in this matter.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
ituttut,

You equate the "servitude" of Gal.4:7 with that
of Rev.22:3. That's the cause of your confusion.

We are sons and no longer "servants" of the Law.
We are sons of God and servants of God.

The Martyrs out of great tribulation will "serve
God in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years".
Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.

The Bride of the Lamb (which you claim does NOT
include us) will "serve God in the New Jerusalem
forever." Rev.21:2,9; Rev.22:3.

When you equate the doctrine of O T "servitude" with that of eternal servitude to God by the sons and Bride of the Lamb (and claim that only Israel is the Bride of the Lamb) you have gone way outside the realm of Biblical truth.

I cannot find in His Word where we Christians are of the “fold” of Israel. We are not of the “covenant” Lambs, and we will hear His voice and we will follow Him, but we are not of that fold. As we are in the Body of Christ we will be joined with them. Is He not the “Head of the Body, and we “now” are in His Body? Is He not the Bridegroom, the one we today are in?

You have challenged me to “show any Scripture that describes us as His Bride since we are only of the Body of Christ”. I repeat what I wrote in
another forum: "Your view makes Jesus the husband
of two wives" by claiming, as you did, "the Book of Revelation doesn’t pointedly say, `Who the Bride is’. It says who the `wife’ is, and I take to mean the Nation of Israel".

You wrongly teach that the "wife" of Rev.19:7 is
the nation of Israel! I just can't understand
how you can claim the Saints in Rev.19 are the nation of Israel and NOT Believers as members of the Bride of the Lamb!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Mel I see things in Revelation that fits with what is said in Isaiah, and Jeremiah that leads me to my belief in this matter. Consider to see what you think. I know some of this is hard to believe, but we must believe what His Word tells us.

Isaiah 62:4-7, ”Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
5. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6. I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,
7. And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.”

Jeremiah to me is even more specific in this matter. 7:34, ”Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.”

To me this is very strong proof when we bring these two together with Revelation 18:23, which we must in prayer and acceptance not reject His Word. ”And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.”

Christ then gives John further revelation to present to us to show scripture does not contradict. Revelation 21:2, ”And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

Revelation 21:9-10, ” And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Ituttut probably does NOT agree with me regarding
"the gathering is not after the tribualtion".

Your words Ed E, "Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation period." I agree you understand His Word perfectly in this matter.

Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you.

You have Soul Liberity and could disagree with
me, if you wished. Likewise you can agree
with me, if you feel led.

 

[Mel Miller]

ituttut,

"Mel I see things in Revelation that fits with what is said in Isaiah, and Jeremiah that leads me to my belief in this matter. Consider to see what you think. I know some of this is hard to believe, but we must believe what His Word tells us".

I still don't see how you find only the nation
of Israel being restored as the Bride of the
Lamb in Revelation.

I agree Israel will be restored as a nation to
inherit the eternal kingdom ON THE EARTH; but
only the Bride of the Lamb saved before Israel
is restored as a nation to God's favor will
"inhabit" the New Jerusalem for all eternity.

Why do you limit the Bride of the Lamb to the
nation of Israel?

And, if you don't mind, please tell me what
Scripture you find to agree with Ed's following statement:

"Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation period". Ed

"I agree you understand His Word perfectly in this matter". Christian faith, ituttut

Mel

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //And, if you don't mind, please tell me what
Scripture you find to agree with Ed's following statement://

"Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation period". Ed

In light of the Scripture do you agree with:
"Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven."?

Joh 14:1-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Let not your heart be troubled: yee\
beleeue in God, beleeue also in me.
2 In my Fathers house are many mansions;
if it were not so, I would haue told you:
I goe to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I goe and prepare a place for you,
I will come againe, and receiue you vnto
my selfe, that where I am, there ye may be also.

Note that people who do NOT agree with this
say Jesus will gather his elect from
the earth and carry them around on the
earth for 1,000 years, every one of them.

 

[Ed Edwards]

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
ituttut,

"Mel I see things in Revelation that fits with what is said in Isaiah, and Jeremiah that leads me to my belief in this matter. Consider to see what you think. I know some of this is hard to believe, but we must believe what His Word tells us".

I still don't see how you find only the nation
of Israel being restored as the Bride of the
Lamb in Revelation.

I agree Israel will be restored as a nation to
inherit the eternal kingdom ON THE EARTH; but
only the Bride of the Lamb saved before Israel
is restored as a nation to God's favor will
"inhabit" the New Jerusalem for all eternity.

Why do you limit the Bride of the Lamb to the
nation of Israel?

In Revelation 18:23 we see the bridegroom and the bride (Israel) gospel is no longer heard in Jerusalem. In Revelation we cannot see the Christian for they were of the Gentile “cities”, and in Jerusalem the gospel of Paul to the Gentiles was not allowed, as we can see in Acts 15, and Galatians 2.

When we speak of Jerusalem we think “Jewish” for it is their City. They are tied to it for this is the abode of the Bridegroom and the Bride. Hebrews 11:89-10, ”By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

This is all about the Bride, Israel-Jerusalem, the Lamb’s wife shown in chapter 21:9-10, and whose “wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb”, Revelation 21:14.

God has a special relationship with His people of which I cannot be counted. They are no better, but He made a two-way covenant with them, and made certain promises. We (I) was never asked to obey the Law of ordinances of His “flock”, and while being no better than they it is by His grace through Jesus Christ my Lord I came without a work to my name. It is His name that we come full of works dripping with blood able to save the whole world.

And, if you don't mind, please tell me what
Scripture you find to agree with Ed's following statement:

"Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation period". Ed

"I agree you understand His Word perfectly in this matter". Christian faith, ituttut

Mel

I believe EdEdwards answered you on this.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Mel Miller]

ituttut,

Ed E reacted to my reference on Mark 13:24-27, March 18, 11:27 AM :
“Jesus did NOT say `He will gather the elect from earth to heaven AFTER great tribulation'". Mark 13:24-27

March 19, 6:24 AM, You wrote:

"Your words Ed E, "Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation period." I agree you understand His Word perfectly in this matter. Christian faith, ituttut

March 17, 10:28 AM, Ed E wrote of Mark 13:24-27:

Sorry, Mel Miller must disagree with Jesus. Jesus did NOT say "He will gather the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great tribulation. That's Mel Miller's understanding of what Jesus said”.

Brother ituttut,
It is clear you agree with Ed E that Mark 13:24-27 does NOT refer to the gathering of the Elect from earth to heaven "after the tribulation".

I wish to further verify that you also agree with Ed E concerning the Elect of Matt.24:29-31:

Ed E wrote on March 18, 11:27 AM:

"I think that Matthew 24:29-30 are about the post-trib Coming of the lord in Power and Glory. And verse 31 is about the pretrib rapture".

Again, Ed E wrote, on March 19, 11:32 PM:
“The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the Rapture/ resurrection which ends the current church age (gentile age, age of grace, last days, etc.)”

Do you agree with Ed E that Matt.24:31 also refers to the Pre-Trib Rapture?

If so, why didn’t Jesus send “the angels to gather the Elect from all extremities of the heavens" BEFORE the tribulation instead of
AFTER the tribulation”?

Here is where Ed E disputes my knowledge of the Greek: On March 16
I wrote:

“Jesus stated: “In the days after the great Tribulation” (Mark 13:24) that "He Himself will gather the elect from earth to heaven” (3rd person singular, episunaxei, Mark 13:27).

Ed E disputes this fact by stating, March 17,
10:28 AM: “It is much better to make a guess that the 'after that tribulation' events only
go to the end of verse 26".

Ed E, by his own admission, dismisses what happens in verse 27, “after the great tribulation, as mere “guesswork”! Was Jesus just making a “guess”? And if not, why does Ed say what happens “after” the great tribulation refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture?

Ed E concludes that “Unfortunately, your (Mel’s) opinion that Mark 13:27 is included (in what happens after the tribulation), leads to all
kinds of contradictions”.

My friend, do you agree with Ed that not only Mark 13:27; but also Matt.24:31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture? And do you agree with Ed that my
view leads to all kinds of contradictions?
Mel

 

[Me4Him]

MEL

God was married to Israel, then gave her a "Divorce" and made a wedding for his Son, Jesus.

Two husbands, Two Brides, Two marriages, Two Celebrations.

Jesus, his bride, church, "lamb's marriage supper", during the trib.

Tribulations, the time when God binds up the breach in his marriage to Israel.

Mill reign, God/Israel marriage celebration in "CANA", Jesus and his discipes (church) are "invited",

If you don't understand the "TRINITY", you won't under the scriptures.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Unrealized by Dispies is that 144,000 Jews will
be the Firstfruit of the Lamb's Bride.

The Lamb will "redeem these Jews from earth;
from among men" before He comes in glory with
ALL the Saints.

These 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes (with
Dan unrepresented) but with a double blessing
to Joseph (with Manasseh taking Dan's place),
will be the FIRSTRFRUIT unto both God and the
Lamb.

As FIRSTFRUIT unto the Lamb, they will sing the
"song of the Lamb and follow Him everywhere He goes". The Lamb's wife will "inhabit the New
Jerusalem forever" after the Millennial Kingdom.

As FIRSTFRUIT unto God, these 144,000 signal the
restoration of Israel as God's wife who will be
restored as His people (including descendants of
Dan) during the Millennial earthly Kingdom.

This Kingdom will include those "left of the
nations coming against Jerusalem prior to
Messiah's return to the Mt. of Olives from
which He ascended into heaven and where He must remain (Acts 3:21) in His role as Messiah until His former people are ready to "bless the One coming in the name of Jehovah".

The TRINITY act as ONE:

The role of the Lamb is not confined to that
of King Messiah. Yet the Lamb's "wife" will
include more than Pre-Trib Saints. All whose names are "written in the Lamb's Book of Life and who are washed in His blood" are part of His Bride. That includes Tribulation Saints and the Prophets and "all who fear God, both small and great". Rev.7:14; Rev.11:18; Rev.19:5.

Please note the "small and great who fear God" are included in the "wife and wedding" of the LAMB in Rev.19:5-7 as well being among those who will be judged and rewarded at King Messiah's return in glory to reward every Believer. Matt. 16:27; Rev.22:12; Rev.11:18.

The "wife" of God will remain on the New earth
"forever" and make up the nations who "inherit" the Kingdom in which, finally, "the will of God will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Matt.25:32-34.

These nations must not only partake of "leaves of the tree of life" in the Millennium; but
contine to do so as they "enter New Jerusalem
at any time where the Lamb and His Bride, His
wife, dwell. Ezek.47:12; Rev.21:9; Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.

The TRINITY is One God acting as 3 Persons. Only the descendants of the former People of God will inherit the eternal Kingdom on earth with David as their king. They will include the descendants of Dan. Only the present People of God will inhabit the New Jerusalem forever.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Jesus is the "Firstfruit" (eternal life) to God, and the church, being the "body of christ" will also be the "Firstfruit", it's part of "Conforming to his image". (pre trib rapture)

Two husbands, Two Brides, Two marriages, Two Celebrations.

Jesus, his bride, church, "lamb's marriage supper", during the trib.

Tribulations, the time when God binds up the breach in his marriage to Israel.

Mill reign, God/Israel marriage celebration in "CANA", Jesus and his discipes (church) are "invited",

De 19:15 at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Scripture will only bear witnesses to the truth when it is "Truth".