BrotherJoe
New Member
Brother JOHN Gilmore:
BROTHER JOHN SAID:
The Holy Spirit does not come to men through their own preparations, works and prayers but only through the Word.
ME: Brother John, forgive my lengthy response, but I ask you do take time to study and read it and would appreciate any replies you may have (negative or positive.)
Firstly Brother John, I agree with you it is not through works, prayers, and the preperations of men that one receives the Holy Spirit, however it is also NOT through ANY means of man including the preached word. I believe you have conversion and regeneration confused. Doesnt this scripture in Jhon teach us the Holy Spirit enters one making them born again independent of the gospel? Christ states, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is BORN OF THE SPIRIT. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?" (John 3:8-9) Brother John,If one received the Holy Spirit via the spoken word of the gospel, then it wouldnt be like the wind because you would be able to identify a specifc time, place, and source that it came from, correct?
BROTHER JOHN SAID: Scripture says Cornelious was "devout", "one that feareth God" and "a just man". Also he was "of good report among all the nations of the Jews". How could any of this be possible without the imputed righteousness of Christ received by faith alone?
ME: Brohter John, we agree that Cornellious was born again before the preacher arrived (although we disagree on how that came about.)
Later in the chapter Peter arrives and Preaches the gospel to Cornellious so he can receive what is known as "justification by faith alone"- in short, this is when Cornellioius gets converted, although he was already born again prior to this. (see Acts 10)
There are 3 different kinds of justification taught in the Bible (Dont worry,I will provide scriptural support for what probably seems to you to be a heretical or at least crazy off base statement.)
1)We are legally justified by God by Christ's substitutionary death for us ALONE! This is what sends us to heaven, NOT faith in the gospel! Where is this in the Bible? " Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9). This is our legal justification. It is also mentioned at length in Isaiah 53, Hebrews 10:14,"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified", and many, many other places throughout the New Testament.
2)We become aware of our legal justification here in our existence on earth via hearing and having faith in the gospel when it is preached to us. This is known as "justification by faith alone" or gospel conversion. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."(Romans 3:28)
Brother John,I like to use the analogy of Lincoln's Immancipation Proclomation to free the slaves. The slaves were legally free by law when Lincoln made the announcement, correct? (This would be our legal justification on calvary, what actually sends us to heaven.) However, it didnt do the slaves any good on earth being freed until someone told them they were freed. So up till this point they were legally free, but slaves in their minds hear on earth until they heard the "good news" from someone of their purchased freedom. When they hear the good news and believe it they have been "justified by faith" so to speak for purposes of our analogy.
3) Finally, their is a third justification spoken of in the Bible towards a man to a man or "justification by works" as I call it. This is how those around us know and can visibly tell we have been justified by Christ's blood and faith. They see our changed behavior (i.e. our works) and it is evident to them we have been justified. This is what James is talking about, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"(James 2:24) In our slave example, people could tell the slaves were now freed when they began to act like free people. So likewise, people can tell were Christians by our actions.
This may seem strange to you Brother John, but I would like to point out that if one does not distinguish between these 3 types of justification found in scripture and takes them all to mean the same thing, he ends with Romans 5:9, 3:28, and James 2:24 all contradicting each other on how one becomes justified.
One must first have the Holy Spirit to be able to produce faith in the gospel because faith itself is a fruit of the Holy Ghost. Remember the Bible says, "But the fruit of the Spirit is...faith"(Galations 5:22). If we do not have the tree how would we producte the fruit of the tree to begin with?
A person that is spiritually dead cannot produce faith because one must first have life (the Holy spirit) to act spiritually.
God bless,
Brother Joe
BROTHER JOHN SAID:
The Holy Spirit does not come to men through their own preparations, works and prayers but only through the Word.
ME: Brother John, forgive my lengthy response, but I ask you do take time to study and read it and would appreciate any replies you may have (negative or positive.)
Firstly Brother John, I agree with you it is not through works, prayers, and the preperations of men that one receives the Holy Spirit, however it is also NOT through ANY means of man including the preached word. I believe you have conversion and regeneration confused. Doesnt this scripture in Jhon teach us the Holy Spirit enters one making them born again independent of the gospel? Christ states, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is BORN OF THE SPIRIT. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?" (John 3:8-9) Brother John,If one received the Holy Spirit via the spoken word of the gospel, then it wouldnt be like the wind because you would be able to identify a specifc time, place, and source that it came from, correct?
BROTHER JOHN SAID: Scripture says Cornelious was "devout", "one that feareth God" and "a just man". Also he was "of good report among all the nations of the Jews". How could any of this be possible without the imputed righteousness of Christ received by faith alone?
ME: Brohter John, we agree that Cornellious was born again before the preacher arrived (although we disagree on how that came about.)
Later in the chapter Peter arrives and Preaches the gospel to Cornellious so he can receive what is known as "justification by faith alone"- in short, this is when Cornellioius gets converted, although he was already born again prior to this. (see Acts 10)
There are 3 different kinds of justification taught in the Bible (Dont worry,I will provide scriptural support for what probably seems to you to be a heretical or at least crazy off base statement.)
1)We are legally justified by God by Christ's substitutionary death for us ALONE! This is what sends us to heaven, NOT faith in the gospel! Where is this in the Bible? " Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9). This is our legal justification. It is also mentioned at length in Isaiah 53, Hebrews 10:14,"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified", and many, many other places throughout the New Testament.
2)We become aware of our legal justification here in our existence on earth via hearing and having faith in the gospel when it is preached to us. This is known as "justification by faith alone" or gospel conversion. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."(Romans 3:28)
Brother John,I like to use the analogy of Lincoln's Immancipation Proclomation to free the slaves. The slaves were legally free by law when Lincoln made the announcement, correct? (This would be our legal justification on calvary, what actually sends us to heaven.) However, it didnt do the slaves any good on earth being freed until someone told them they were freed. So up till this point they were legally free, but slaves in their minds hear on earth until they heard the "good news" from someone of their purchased freedom. When they hear the good news and believe it they have been "justified by faith" so to speak for purposes of our analogy.
3) Finally, their is a third justification spoken of in the Bible towards a man to a man or "justification by works" as I call it. This is how those around us know and can visibly tell we have been justified by Christ's blood and faith. They see our changed behavior (i.e. our works) and it is evident to them we have been justified. This is what James is talking about, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"(James 2:24) In our slave example, people could tell the slaves were now freed when they began to act like free people. So likewise, people can tell were Christians by our actions.
This may seem strange to you Brother John, but I would like to point out that if one does not distinguish between these 3 types of justification found in scripture and takes them all to mean the same thing, he ends with Romans 5:9, 3:28, and James 2:24 all contradicting each other on how one becomes justified.
One must first have the Holy Spirit to be able to produce faith in the gospel because faith itself is a fruit of the Holy Ghost. Remember the Bible says, "But the fruit of the Spirit is...faith"(Galations 5:22). If we do not have the tree how would we producte the fruit of the tree to begin with?
A person that is spiritually dead cannot produce faith because one must first have life (the Holy spirit) to act spiritually.
God bless,
Brother Joe
