JesusFan, all KyRedneck is saying (if he will allow me to say this) is quote scripture to back your points up.
Try this: Go read your posts on this thread. Count the number of verses cited. Then go to Ky's, or revmwc's, or mine.
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Hyper-Preterism
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
JesusFan, all KyRedneck is saying (if he will allow me to say this) is quote scripture to back your points up.
Try this: Go read your posts on this thread. Count the number of verses cited. Then go to Ky's, or revmwc's, or mine.
The Kingdom of God is the realm of God in which the believer resides. Heaven the eternal realm of God never has sin in it meaning it refers to the true believer in the realm of God. While the Kingdom of Heaven is the realm of both in which believer and unbelievers who profess to be chrisitians reside. So the Kingdom of God is only believers while the Kingdom of Heaven is made up of both believer and professing unbelievers. So the two can be interchanged in some cases but not all. When their is leaven the Kingdom of Heaven cannot be interchangedwith the kingdom of God.
Then the millinial kingodm will begin with believers from the tribulation period. It will be a world wide Kingdom with Christ reigning as the political and spiritual leader.
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You're pulling a 'JesusFan' here; you've given this involved explanation with absolutely no scripture to build your case on. Here's some scripture for you to explain:
17 From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 4
14 Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel. Mk 1
You make a distinction between the two when those that penned the NT did not. On what grounds do you do this? I mean, on what scriptural grounds do you do this? Build your case from scripture.
I thought the previous scriptures I had posted would suffice but I'll go back once I get to my notes and post scripture refrences.
Both of us, the "hyper-judaizers" have been laying the foundation..
Kyrednech:Jews as our masters.
We do and will have a Jew as our master for all eternity, Jesus Christ.
We do and will have a Jew as our master for all eternity, Jesus Christ.
John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
HankD
HankD
No, I fully recognize the difference between the physical and spiritual aspects of the kingdom at the time of Christ. It is you who fails to comprehend. The physical being the law covenant through Moses, and the spiritual being the eternal covenant of grace and truth through Jesus Christ:
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17
When the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom, the law covenant ceased, forever. God in His long suffering, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, allowed the two covenants to coexist for forty years, a full generation, giving the Jews time to repent, but she would not. Then was fulfilled the words of 'the Prophet':
11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8
By casting out the [physical, carnal] 'sons of the kingdom', God effectively 'severed the wicked from among the righteous', and 'gathered out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling'. It is articulated this way in Hebrews:
whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:26, 27
From the same chapter in Hebrews:
For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched,…….. but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant,…………. Hebrews 12:18,22,23,24
The problem with you JF, and myriads of others like you, is that you're still looking for a 'a mount that might be touched', after God has already removed it, and has brought us to 'mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem', which can neither be touched with the hand, nor seen with the mortal eye.
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The root and branch of Jesse; an Israelite indeed.
Hi kyredneck, I believe many are confusing Israel after the flesh with "redeemed" or believing Israel.
The kingdom of God was taken from the Nation of Israel (after the flesh) during Jesus earthy ministry to be given to a nation bringing forth fruits in keeping with the Kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God was taken from the Nation of Israel (after the flesh) during Jesus earthy ministry to be given to a nation bringing forth fruits in keeping with the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 21
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
The Kingdom of God is presently described as in a "mystery form" in Matthew 13, Israel after the flesh having had the Kingdom of God taken from it per Matthew 21:43.
Matthew 13.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This enduring until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled:
Romans 11
23 And they (Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
23 And they (Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Luke 21:24 And they (Israel) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
At which time comes the Tribulation and the promise of Jeremiah 31 of a believing Nation of Israel via the hand of God - Redeemed Israel fulfilled in the sealing of the 144,000 of redeemed believing Israel described in Revelation 7.
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
HankD
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Nope...
I am also looking for the Heavenly jersusalem, but also am looking for the Lord to literally fulfill the promises he made to the jewish peoples, at the Second Coming of Christ to set up his Milleniual rule...
seems that you have to understand that there are things that MUST happen when jesus returns...
We must put on glorified bodies, he must set up the Kingdom on earth etc...
You look for the heavenly Jerusalem when the scriptures palinly say that God has brought us there already. You look for the kingdom of David when the scriptures plainly say the incoming of the nations to the Church was just that, the building again of the House of David. It's like I told revmwc, you hold to the same carnal views that the Jews did. Believe what you want; I've got other things to do than to ride this merry go round.
[edit] not only do you never quote the scriptures, but you choose to willfully reject the plain interpretation of scripture.
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Excellent answer, although I disagree, they will be "graffed" back in to the promise to Abraham and his seed to be a blessing to all nations.
The whole of Romans chapter 11 seems IMO to lend itself more to a restoration of Israel itself as nation of regenerated Jews, sealed and elected at a later date.
For now Jews must come to Christ as if they are Gentiles (until the fulness of the Gentiles are come in) and are part of the church when saved. There is no difference.
In Revelation 21 both the Church of the Firstborn and Redeemed Israel are represented in metaphors:
Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
...
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
...
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Thanks kyredneck, I understand if you don't want to respond, it does get weary repeating oneself.
We'll have a long long time to discuss this in the New Jerusalem.
HankD
interesting...
You take the "plain meaning" of Isreal to receive a future due to the promises made to them by God, yet say Church and Isreal mean the same thing now?
Wouldn;t it be better to take the literal words of bible and interpret them that way?
What is the hope Paul had for his "kismen in the flesh", that God could not forget them, and would one retore them, with messiah ruling over them?
Where does it say that God cannot have Isreal and Church at same time receiving their promised blessings from the Lord?
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Good point, now why don't you practice what you preach. Start with Rev 1:1,3.
Now give us all the literal meaning of the words shortly and near.
Scriptural definition of shortly and near:
2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
When it comes to the Day of the Lord it's subjective to Him not to humanity.
HankD
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand
God had a message for John he was going to show Him what must come to pass shortly, so what does shortly mean or the time is at hand. First the time was at that the message to the churches applied, what God was going
to do if they didn't listen to and heed His warning.
The things following in Revelation 4 are yet future, will occur shortly, is this shortly by man's time or God's time. I believe it would be God's time 2 Peter 3: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Since just under 2000 years has past since the writing of Revelation that would be less than two days to the Lord. 1 1/2 days is a short period of time so these things will come to pass shortly according to God's timing not ours.
Here is how Peter began the chapter, 1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Verse 3 tells us of scoffers then verses four through five are being fulfilled today, we have many scoffers who are saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:" wow did the Holy Spirit through Peter nail it or what? Saying it won't be a physical return is just like saying where is the promise of His coming.