Hypocrisy

That didn't answer my question. Who is the "world", and why did Jesus exclude them from His prayer?

 

He was praying for his apostles. Later he prayed for those in the world who would believe through their message.

 

There's an important point. We can't pray as He did, because we don't know all that He knew.

It is not relevant to this question, but that's not what the text says.

Again, it is not relevant to this question, but that's not what the text says. He is praying that we would be one, just as He and His Father are one.

Salvation is available to anyone who will believe. No one disputes this.

Here's the point. Jesus knows exactly who will believe and who will not. He prays specifically for those who are already His, and then specifically for those who will believe, and then generally for the world to believe as well. And that's why we should pray for the lost.

 

That didn't answer my question. Who is the "world", and why did Jesus exclude them from His prayer? </font>[/QUOTE]Well, if in Jesus' prayer he declares that it is the Father who gave him what belonged to the Father, and since Jesus says that HE has perserved those elect save for the one who was lost to fulfill prophesy, that leaves only one conclusion, that the Apostles are the elect of God, and WE are the world. Not to difficult to arrive at if you read all of Jesus' Prayer, and I posted all of it!

 

As You sent me into the world, so it send them into the world. Jesus took 12 men and made them the core of Christianity, building His church upon them as the foundation. All believers who have become so by the teachings of these core person of Christ's church are the building materials Jesus uses to build his church. We are of the world, having being redeemed therefrom, so it is we who are the world. Not all the world has been redeemed nor will all the world be redeemed. But that won't be because the world cannot be, but rather that the world will not submit to be. Those of us who do submit shall have everlasting life through our faith in Jesus.

 

Let me see if I've got this straight. You believe that it is hypocritical for the Calvinist to pray for what God has promised to do, namely save the elect, but it is NOT hypocritical for the Arminian to pray for what God has promised to do, namely draw all men to himself! What kind of double standard is that?

And I think that it is futile to believe your doctrine. Your god who cannot save is not the God I worship.

 

Wes,

I pray because I believe that God "can" save people through my prayer. God has ordained prayer as a means of accomplishing His will. On the other hand, why do you pray?
If God is trying to save all people anyway, if you pray what will it help? Is it going to make him try 110%? If so, then He was "not" trying to save everybody as much as He could. If it is not going to change Him, then what does it matter if you pray?

In Christ...

 

I pray because I believe that God "can" save people through my prayer. God has ordained prayer as a means of accomplishing His will. On the other hand, why do you pray?
If God is trying to save all people anyway, if you pray what will it help? Is it going to make him try 110%? If so, then He was "not" trying to save everybody as much as He could. If it is not going to change Him, then what does it matter if you pray?

In Christ... </font>[/QUOTE]I pray to communicate with my creator, Lord and God! I don't pray that he saves anyone. He has already expressed that as HIS WILL! I pray that I will be bold enough to speak to those with whom I come into contact that they will be receptive to seeds of faith that I may speak to them in our conversations. And that they will not discard those seeds, but rather allow them to germinate and bring them to faith in God. I Pray to thank God for making me in His image so that I am "somewhat autonomous in the environment in which He placed me". So that I can be free to behave in accordance with what His word teaches, and not succumb to doing that which does not please him. I pray to God seek his wisdom, which he freely give to whomever seeks it!

I have a whole lot more reasons that I pray, but those will give you some idea.

 

Wes,

Atleast your consistent with your Arminianism. I am just glad Paul's theology was different than yours:

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Rom. 10:1)

Conclusion: I like Paul can pray for a persons salvation. You are in direct opposition to the word by not praying for peoples salvation. But this is what your Arminian theology demands.

 

Since it is already God's will that they be saved, I pray "not by will but thine be done. I never lose site of who I'm praying to, I know God, and He knows even my deepest groanings. He understands me better than any man could understand me, so what's the purpose of me audibilizing my utterings requesting salvation for so and so! God want's them saved I want them saved. We are one in spirit regarding their salvation, but neither of us forces the issue because salvation must be volunteered for!

Even so Lord, Not my will but thine be done.

 

Wes,

I think you see my point. Just wandering do you think that we get whatever we ask according to God's will? I JOHN 5:14,15.

In Christ

 

Put your whole mind and spirit in the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added to you.

 

Wes,
Will God do "everything" that we ask according to His will?

Yes or No

 

If it's already HIS WILL, why do we need to ask for it? He is God after all! He knows "our needs" and fills them for us without our asking! It is routinely "our wants" that we pray asking God for. In the thousands of prayers that I've been privvy to it is usually, "Lord, I want you to save poor Susie, if it is in your will", or "God, I am in need of_________ (you fill in the blank).

When you pray asking "according to His will", we do no more than acknowledge that He has a will. So what is the point? It is not as if God doesn't know of Aunt Maud's lumbago, and you have to remind Him. And it's not a matter of collective kindred spirits having any influence over God.

NO! I am not saying that there is nothing to prayer. To do so would be saying there is nothing to "communication between beings". We need to have communication with our God, for OUR benefit, not for His. Praying to God keeps our mind receptive to HIM and not the other way around. He was completely self sufficient before he made us, and remains self sufficient. He does not need us, we need Him!