Hypostatic union

[Yeshua1]

A good post, Hank. Very informative and convenient to have these verses listed together.

The only caveat I would have is that the assumption seems to be that the nature of Christ in the Incarnation has to be the very same nature He has now; His missional purpose vs. His eternal essence. It was certainly necessary for Him to be in the flesh ("the days of His flesh", Heb. 5:7).

That is not necessary now. Essential humanity - what makes us us is not in the flesh, else we would be de-manned when we die.

The resurrection was a physical one, as the same body that He died in was glorified up again, just as all of the saved will have our physical bodies raised up and be glorified?
The resurrection was and will be a physical resurrection, correct?

 

[HankD]

The resurrection was a physical one, as the same body that He died in was glorified up again, just as all of the saved will have our physical bodies raised up and be glorified?
The resurrection was and will be a physical resurrection, correct?

If you are asking me Y - my answer is yes.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

If you are asking me Y - my answer is yes.

HankD

Thanks, knew your answer, was addressing our pretierist friend!

 

[asterisktom]

Thanks Tom.

The futurist point of view is that the life force of Jesus body is not the same as when He walked the earth in the flesh post resurrection.

In His resurrection His body was not made alive after the animus of oxygenated blood but of the life giving force of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Futurist hold to a material resurrected body which presumably will not be subject to death or entropy.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Many take the following passage as indicating we have a temporary intermediate body pre-resurrection:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

Jesus appeared in a material body post resurrection. He ate a meal with the apostles/disciples.

If He is not presently in possession of this body what happened to it? - what is the preterist explanation Tom?

HankD

I know you asked this last question before, Hank. And I answered the same way - I don't know. I don't pretend to know all the details on this. Some things are just not for us to know, I would say.

Only have a few minutes in the library - it really pains me to have to rely on someone else driving me around - on their schedule. But a quick note here:

Many times timeswhen you see "body" in the NT it refers to the corporate body - the body of Christ, the church.

 

[asterisktom]

The resurrection was a physical one, as the same body that He died in was glorified up again, just as all of the saved will have our physical bodies raised up and be glorified?
The resurrection was and will be a physical resurrection, correct?

I can't get by your first question in order to answer the second. In fact, the first question-complex is a leading one. Breaking it down:

Christ:
Physical resurrection - yes
Physical ascension - yes
Post-glorification - no

Christians: physical resurrection - no.

Read 1 Cor. 15.

I have written much on this in the past. I am sure it is in the archives.

Gotta go

 

[HankD]

I know you asked this last question before, Hank. And I answered the same way - I don't know. I don't pretend to know all the details on this. Some things are just not for us to know, I would say.

Only have a few minutes in the library - it really pains me to have to rely on someone else driving me around - on their schedule. But a quick note here:

Many times times when you see "body" in the NT it refers to the corporate body - the body of Christ, the church.

Yes all these points have been covered but for the sake of the newcomers ... do a revisit ...

Thanks Tom

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

I can't get by your first question in order to answer the second. In fact, the first question-complex is a leading one. Breaking it down:

Christ:
Physical resurrection - yes
Physical ascension - yes
Post-glorification - no

Christians: physical resurrection - no.

Read 1 Cor. 15.

I have written much on this in the past. I am sure it is in the archives.

Gotta go

The greek term chosen by paul and the Holy Spirit though does NOT mean we are raised in a spiritual body like a Ghost, but that our physical bodies will be transformed into a state able to exist forever with the Lord, but still physical, for did not Jesus eat some Fish?

 

[HankD]

The greek term chosen by paul and the Holy Spirit though does NOT mean we are raised in a spiritual body like a Ghost, but that our physical bodies will be transformed into a state able to exist forever with the Lord, but still physical, for did not Jesus eat some Fish?

It seems that not only our material bodies but the entire material universe will be renovated into mater not subject to mortality (entropy):

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

HankD

 

[agedman]

Are some forgetting that all current is done away?

All earth and heaven are done away in a fiery end.

Then the final judgment

Then the revealing of a New Heaven and a New Earth. That prepared as Christ said?

A place Satan has never seen or fouled with his deceitful presence.

 

[HankD]

Are some forgetting that all current is done away?
.

If you are asking me - No. - except it should be all current WILL be done away.


HankD

 

[agedman]

If you are asking me - No. - except it should be all current WILL be done away.


HankD

Thank you! You’re absolutely correct.

 

[asterisktom]

The greek term chosen by paul and the Holy Spirit though does NOT mean we are raised in a spiritual body like a Ghost, but that our physical bodies will be transformed into a state able to exist forever with the Lord, but still physical, for did not Jesus eat some Fish?

Your last question shows that you did not carefully read my detailed answer above.

 

[asterisktom]

Are some forgetting that all current is done away?

All earth and heaven are done away in a fiery end.

When we need to define Biblical words ('elements") we should see how the Bible uses the word elsewhere. Check out some of the other uses of Stoicheia.

 

[asterisktom]

Yes all these points have been covered but for the sake of the newcomers ... do a revisit ...

Thanks Tom

HankD

Wish I could. I have about twenty things to do here at the library in about as many minutes ; ). I will do my best as I have time.

 

[agedman]

When we need to define Biblical words ('elements") we should see how the Bible uses the word elsewhere. Check out some of the other uses of Stoicheia.

Yep, another area the preterist have to mess up.

Let’s not take stoicheia as basic elements of either physical or non-physical. Let’s not consider more than a single definition. Let’s put all uses as having to fit a small single definition.

It is seen when the word translated “generations” and now with this word “elements.”

Strange that although the definition includes any basic physical structure such as atoms and molecules and basic non-physical such as thought and influences, the preterist would allow for only one to be true ignoring the other

Is this view attractive to those with limited vocabulary skills, or is it relying on folks accepting limited vocabulary as more carrying more authority?

Because it is obvious in the threads that one or the other is the case. Personally, I think it is the latter.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your last question shows that you did not carefully read my detailed answer above.

I did, but you seem to reject that we will have a physical resurrection, and that would be heresy viewpoint in regards to how the historical Church has always seen this issue!

 

[HankD]

Here is a site which claims to be preterist and their view on the resurrection of the body.

A summary statement :

Finally, it should be obvious that a spiritual body, as set forth in Scripture, is much more than simply a body “fully controlled by the Holy Spirit” as some writers would have us believe. Read Revelation chapter 1 to get a magnificent picture of what a spiritual body is like. As Paul said in I Cor. 15:42-49, “there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” The natural body comes first and is suitable for life on this earth; the spiritual body comes later and is suitable for life in heaven. Again, we see the concept of “change” being emphasized. We must not confuse the different kinds of bodies. The Scriptures certainly do not!

The Resurrected Body of Jesus Christ (*edited by Walt Hibbard) | Planet Preterist

Read the full article for the full view.

Personally I believe that Jesus has the same resurrected glorified body that was able to eat with the disciples now as then and again there will be eating and drinking in the kingdom at His return.

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

HankD

 

[asterisktom]

Yep, another area the preterist have to mess up.

Let’s not take stoicheia as basic elements of either physical or non-physical. Let’s not consider more than a single definition. Let’s put all uses as having to fit a small single definition.

It is seen when the word translated “generations” and now with this word “elements.”

Strange that although the definition includes any basic physical structure such as atoms and molecules and basic non-physical such as thought and influences, the preterist would allow for only one to be true ignoring the other

Is this view attractive to those with limited vocabulary skills, or is it relying on folks accepting limited vocabulary as more carrying more authority?

Because it is obvious in the threads that one or the other is the case. Personally, I think it is the latter.

Not interested in a Biblical discussion on this, eh? Insults suit you better I guess. Well, count me out in any further discussion with you.

But I do hope to start another thread on STOICHEIA. It is another one of the terms where commited futurists have to slant the meaning to prop up their unfounded beliefs.

 

[asterisktom]

Here is a site which claims to be preterist and their view on the resurrection of the body.

A summary statement :



The Resurrected Body of Jesus Christ (*edited by Walt Hibbard) | Planet Preterist

Read the full article for the full view.

Personally I believe that Jesus has the same resurrected glorified body that was able to eat with the disciples now as then and again there will be eating and drinking in the kingdom at His return.

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

HankD

Not having read the full article, I pretty much agree with Walt's assessment. He also has a good video on how he became a Preterist after being a futurist for many years. Very much parallels my experience.

 

[HankD]

But I do hope to start another thread on STOICHEIA. It is another one of the terms where commited futurists have to slant the meaning to prop up their unfounded beliefs.

Thems fightin' words Tom!

Most lexicons define stoicheia as "the rudimentary elements of a system" - language - the stoicheion would be the alphabet letters. The meaning of said elements being drawn from the context.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The context is physical as is the previous section speaking of REAL water which overturned and destroyed all life except for Noah and family and (some/many/most) aquatic beings.

So, It is NOT futurists who strain the credibility of the scripture in 2 Peter 3:10 - 13 but preterists.

HankD