I am abandoning TULIP

Lies, lies, lies.

I don't think arminians are heretics ... i just think they are misguided. There are arminians in my home church ... I don't think they are heretics. I know they are believers and desire to know the truth of God's word.

And I never claim to have the best grasp on or perfect understanding of the doctrines of salvation.

If you think we think you're hertics, you shouldn't waste your time ... You might as well exercise seperation and be done with it. Save yourself a headahce or two.

 

Then you didn't read what I posted. Can you provide even a single credible witness to back up your assertion that Pelagius is not a heretic?

 

Talk about NOT Biblical.

I ask: WHY? WHY? WHY? why would you elevate a heretic to be your church father? </font>[/QUOTE]I would doubt that Thomas called Pelagius one of "his church fathers." For those who don't know, "church fathers" is a term for many men in teh first centuries of the church. You can read their writings in many places, including a multi volume set. If you were to read closely, you would find that many of them held unbiblical views on things. The point is that "church fathers" is the historical designation of these men. It is not a statement about their relative orthodoxy or not.

 

I did not say pelagius is not a heretic, I said that I see nothing heretic about what was posted that was attributed to Pelagius.

He, like I, denies any ill conceived notion that the man that was in the garden "in the image of God" was changed by sin so that man outside the garden was no longer in the image of God. Every man that was ever conceived is conceived in the image of God, That is what God made man to be...in his image. Man has not been altered by sin.

However, man's relationship with God is dead because of sin. Therefore man's spirit is viewed by God as being dead spirit because it was doomed to death which is the penalty for sin.

Man remains doomed to die, but because sin has been atoned by God the Son, the reason man remains doomed to die has changed from that of sin to that of unbelief.

It was that the Jews had atonement for sin through the blood of Sacrificed animals, but even then it was "Confession on Saturday, sin like hell the rest of the week". God changed all that by making Faith in His persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit the means of escape from death. He did that by Giving his Son, Jesus to die in our stead. Now we do not face death by sin...only death by lack of faith.

God rent the temple vail from top to bottom upon Jesus' death, thus clearing the way for man, any man out of the whole of mankind, to come to him directly without intercession by other men.

The church does not seem to have gotten the message yet...especially those who insist that no one can come to God lest they be of the elect, or unless they first be regenerated so they can! That is pure hogwash! It simply is not the truth that man cannot come to God! God opened the door, is standing there beckoning all to come, if we hear and come to Him, He accepts all who do.

There is no such then as "election" as it is used in Calvinism!

 

Spoken like a true Calvinist. Any notion that the image of God in man was destroyed by the fall is indeed "ill-conceived" and is not Calvinistic. Calvinism properly teaches that the image of God was marred in the fall, and that is what Pelagius denied. He essentially believed that sin did not affect man, and that man was born innocent.

Again, spoken like a true Calvinist. The problem is your stuff inbetween these statements. To assert that man does not die because of sin has two problems. First it asserts that the Bible is incorrect when it says that man is dead because of sin (Rom 6:23; Eph 2:1; etc). Second, it asserts that the Bible is incorrect when it says that man's goes to hell because of sin (Rev 20:11-15; 21:8 etc.). Third, it asserts that unbelief is not a sin, which is contrary to what the Bible says when it says that God command men to believe (ACts 16:31; ACts 17:26; etc).

Being wrong on three major biblical revelations is pretty serious. It is enough to cause the followers of Christ to abandon this position and believe what the Bible says, that people die and go to hell becuase of sin, and taht unbelief is sin.

 

Go read it again, then. Let me help you.

Do you really agree with Pelagius that Christ's death was unnecessary and accomplishes nothing?

 

If you are going to quote me, Larry, quote me accurately

NO, I do not believe that man is born innocent! When one commits a transgression, the guilt of the transgression does not "change the man" the man remains the same...but guilty of the transgression. Until confession is made, the guilty party is not forgiven and release from guilt.

I believe that God did not change man as the result of man's sin. God is the only one with power to do so. However, the God-man relationship was severed, and man was set outside the place where God is. In order for man to be restored, God did marvelous and mysterious works so that man could be restored.

I believe that sin has no power to change man! But that man engaging in sin under the Old Covenant under the blood of animals was subject to death because of sin, and man willingly, even daringly engages in sin.

I believe that in the New covenant which is under the blood of Jesus, man is not subject to the penalty of sin because Jesus atoned for ALL sin in ALL times. The scriptures are replete with "we are saved through faith"...not by 'not sinning'! Repentance from sinning is the sign of our faith, and it honors the one who paid our penalty, that we would be more like him. His was sinless, we strive to sin less, but when we do, we confess our sins, and he faithfully forgives our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. What a Wonderful Savior

 

Then by holding to the belief that man dies and goes to hell because of his sins, is to deny Jesus' atonement for sin! You cannot have it both ways, Either Jesus death did atone for sin or it did not! Either the atonement dealt effectively with sin, and mankind does not pay the penalty, or all of mankind is under "double jeopardy" Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

If man remains under the penalty of sin, then All men remain under the penalty of sin! Larry, you must deal with the atonement! You simply cannot have it both ways!

 

If you are going to quote me, Larry, quote me accurately </font>[/QUOTE]Don't get mad. Go back and look. I did quote you accurately. It was a cut and paste with no revisions or changes. My quote was absolutely word for word what you said.

Yes, that is what I said you said.

I didn't say you did. Pelagius said that, however, which was what I said. Go back and read it. Don't accuse me of saying something I didn't say.

God didn't change man. Sin changed man. God said that sin has built in consequences: When you sin, you will surely die. It was sin that changed man.

That is a denial of Scripture. In Genesis, God said that sin would change man. Eph 4:17-19 gives clear evidence that sin changes man. Why do you say this stuff? Do you really think we don't know Scripture?

That is false. In the NC, sin still brings death.

That is correct. If we were saved by "not sinning," that would be salvation by works, and would never take care of past sins already committed. If you never sinned from this day on, you would still go to hell because of past sins. That is why reformation or "doing better" won't save you.

The problem is that, as I pointed out, your position contradicts explicit Scripture. And your posts often reveal more contradictions of Scripture, such as this post did.

 

[/b]I can't understand how you can possibly say this. You have it exactly backwards. If Jesus atoned for sin for all time, then no one would go to hell. Do you believe people go to hell? If so, then you can't at the same time say Jesus atoned for sin. You have changed the meaning of atonement. You place people in double jeopardy by having God punish them for sins that Christ paid for. That is unjust and god cannot do that.

The atonement did effectively deal with the sins of the elect. It did not pay eternally for the sins of others.

Yes, and that is why all men must come to Christ for forgiveness.

I don't have it both ways. I have dealt with teh atonement. Your position is unbiblical. It demeans the sacrifice of Christ and threatens the justice of God. Your position has God sending people to hell for sins already paid for. That is wrong. It is heresy.

This is so amazingly simple that you should not miss it. I have given the passages where God explicitly says that people go to hell for sin. But you want to ignore those so you can hold your own thinking in higher esteem than God's revelation. That is wrong.

 

Go read it again, then. Let me help you.

Do you really agree with Pelagius that Christ's death was unnecessary and accomplishes nothing? </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with Pelagius that man determines his own destiny.

I do not agree with your statement about Pelagius.

I do agree that "original sin" the way the church teaches it, is wrong!

I believe in the Christ's atonement for sin, and that man has no power to 'not sin' without faith in God.

I do not believe that man is totally depraved! I do not believe that man sins ALL THE TIME as in "total depravity". Some of the least sinful people I know sin less than most Christians I know.

I do not believe that man is unable to hear and believe God's word without first being regenerated. I believe that man can, as has been demonstrated in a myriad of non-religious activities, Hear a truth and thereby be regenerated to be able to act on what has been "heard". I have seen that very thing happen, and have indeed experienced it myself. Truly, I heard the word of God before I was every ready to believe it and thereby be regenerated (born again). You see, I believe like the whole of scriptures teaches, that man's regeneration comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God!

 

God didn't change man. Sin changed man. God said that sin has built in consequences: When you sin, you will surely die. It was sin that changed man.</font>[/QUOTE]You are assuming that man was created an eternal being. Deal with this

Man was not created to be an eternal being.

"Now that man has become as one of us", Yes, I guess you are right Larry, sin did change man, it gave him the knowlege of Good and evil. The sin was disobedience of God, the resulting consequence was loss of innocense, and banishment from the presence of God....and long life,

Sin did not change man from the way that God created him, it gave man the knowledge of Good and evil the way that God knows good and evil.

Man sins because man chooses to sin! and because of the broken relationship with God, Man dies because of sin. HOWEVER, the rest of the story is that GOD, the Son, also died, so that man does not have to die for sin, but instead can have everlasting life through faith in God the Son.

We don't die for sin. The only reason we die is for lack of faith in Jesus!

 

That's not really stretching it, since the Bible tells us that.

Man was not created to be an eternal being.</font>[/QUOTE]Based on what? Your verse proves nothing. That is about living forever in a sinful state, not about living forever. Seriously, have you actually thought about this? Or are you just making it up as you go?

Yes it did.

Sin did not change man from the way that God created him, it gave man the knowledge of Good and evil the way that God knows good and evil. </font>[/QUOTE]God said it brought death. The Bible makes that explicit, both in Genesis and Romans. Are you denying that?

Careful ... you are sounding like a Calvinist.

Which is what I said and you denied just above.

Once again, spoken like a true Calvinist.

The Bible says differently (Gen 2, Rom 5; Rom 6; Eph 2; Rev 20; Rev 21; etc ... those are just a few of the passages that directly and explicitly contradict you.

The Bible never says that. But even at that, lack of faith in Jesus is a sin, and therefore, even your own assertion disproves your earlier point ... Man dies because of sin.

 

I don't have it both ways. I have dealt with teh atonement. Your position is unbiblical. It demeans the sacrifice of Christ and threatens the justice of God. Your position has God sending people to hell for sins already paid for. That is wrong. It is heresy.

This is so amazingly simple that you should not miss it. I have given the passages where God explicitly says that people go to hell for sin. But you want to ignore those so you can hold your own thinking in higher esteem than God's revelation. That is wrong.</font>[/QUOTE]Why do you not comprehend what I say? God does not send people to hell for sins that are already paid. He sends people to hell for not having faith in HIS SON!

Know this truth and it will set you free!
From Adam to Jesus, it was sin that condemned.
From Jesus to NOW, it is UNBELIEF that condemns (John 3:18)

 

Think about it Larry, if man was created to be an eternal being there would have been no need for a tree of life!

 

I do ... and refute it with the Bible.

On that you are correct. That is the calvinist position on the atonement. It is what Scripture teaches.

That is certainly one of the sins that he sends them to hell for, along with others as Rev 20:11-15 and Rev 21:8 explicitly show. Wes, you are directly denying the revelation of Scripture on this point. God has already told us that people go to hell for their sins. You should not say otherwise as if you know more than God does.

Scripture explicitly refutes that. Sin always condemned. Writing to people after Jesus, Paul told them that sin condemned.

You are in gross error on sin and the atonement.

 

Folks,

Pelegius held many things that were wierd.

But the primary pelagian heresy dealt with the sovereignity of God versus the quality of man. The heresy that he is remembered for, said that God left man in a state that through a man's righteousness he could save himself (without the Blood of Christ).

Ironically, Arminius is credited with one of pelagius' heresies, but he was never close to what pelagius taught.

 

That is certainly one of the sins that he sends them to hell for, along with others as Rev 20:11-15 and Rev 21:8 explicitly show. Wes, you are directly denying the revelation of Scripture on this point. God has already told us that people go to hell for their sins. You should not say otherwise as if you know more than God does.</font>[/QUOTE]God the Son says,

Judged because one does not believe....straight from the mouth of God!

 

Scripture explicitly refutes that. Sin always condemned. Writing to people after Jesus, Paul told them that sin condemned.

You are in gross error on sin and the atonement.</font>[/QUOTE]Larry, please explain exactly what the atonement was, and what it did! Also, Explain WHY it was necessary!

 

So you think you can ignore other passages that refute you because you don't like what they say? I hardly think so. John 3:18 is right, and fits in perfectly with the passages I cited above. Peoplee go to hell for their sins. And their sins are what send them there because they did not believe on Christ.

YOu are spending time talking about the atonement when you don't even know what it is? That doesn't surprise me ... The atonement was the payment for sin. It was necessary because man is a sinner and the consequent absolute necessity of God's decree to save was the death of his Son as the atoning sacrifice for sin.