I am abandoning TULIP

You continue to surprise me. You remind me of certain preachers that I know, ones who are often wrong but never in doubt. Total depravity does not mean what you say. You really ought to learn more about what you are arguing against.

 

I'm away for a day and look what happens! Wes admits he's a semi-pelagian!

 

Is there an echo in here?????????????

 

You continue to surprise me. You remind me of certain preachers that I know, ones who are often wrong but never in doubt. Total depravity does not mean what you say. You really ought to learn more about what you are arguing against. </font>[/QUOTE]Well sir, I know the definition of Total, and I know the definition of depraved.
total, adj.
1. constituting or comprising the whole; entire; whole: the total expenditure.
2. of or pertaining to the whole of something: the total effect of a play.
3. complete in extent or degree; absolute; unqualified; utter: a total failure.
4. involving all aspects, elements, participants, resources, etc.; unqualified; all-out: total war.

depraved, adj.
corrupt, wicked, or perverted.
Synonyms: evil, sinful, debased, reprobate, degenerate; dissolute, profligate; licentious, lewd. See immoral.

Thus, what is Totally depraved is completely corrupt, and that simply does not fit the picture of man made in the image of God.

 

Total depravity has a theological definition, not a dictionary one. IT is not the sum of two meanings.

Total depravity means that every part of man's being (total) is affected by sin (depraved). It does not mean that man is as bad as he could be. It does not mean that all men are equally bad.

Please learn before spouting off ...

 

Why must theological definition be different than what is common to man? Isn't Theology "MAN'S STUDY OF GOD"?

Or is there a "theological definition" for "Theology" that is not in the dictionary?

When any two words are put together FOR PURPOSE, they act as one! Therefore "Total Depravity" means "totally corrupt", not "partially corrupt"!

Simply saying that man is depraved is sufficient to convey the meaning of corrupt in all aspects of man. Adding Total or Totally to depraved, means that there is nothing about man that is worthy of redemption.

God obviously knows otherwise because God redeems whosoever believeth in Him. Man is made in God's image, Man sinned but remains in God's image. God redeems man!

 

I have noticed that Wes has a terrible lack of understanding of theological terms and often makes the error of the root fallacy in trying to defend his indefensible position. It is sad, really sad, that such is the state of his brand of Christendom. </font>[/QUOTE]What is truly sad is that "religionists" such as yourself, have taken the easy to understand and made it a foreign language to the masses. You have "unionized" religion, meaning that unless one has a seminary degree in learning the secret language, one has no right to engage in religion!

You'd be wrong of course!

 

Hi Wes;
Beautifully said A Men
Mike

 

Well said, Wes.

Job 15:2 "Should a wise man answer with empty knowledge, And fill himself with the east wind? 3 Should he reason with unprofitable talk, Or by speeches with which he can do no good? 4 Yes, you cast off fear, And restrain prayer before God. 5 For your iniquity teaches your mouth, And you choose the tongue of the crafty. 6 Your own mouth condemns you, and not I; Yes, your own lips testify against you. 7 "Are you the first man who was born? Or were you made before the hills? 8 Have you heard the counsel of God? Do you limit wisdom to yourself? 9 What do you know that we do not know? What do you understand that is not in us? 10 Both the gray-haired and the aged are among us, Much older than your father. 11 Are the consolations of God too small for you, And the word spoken gently with you? 12 Why does your heart carry you away, And what do your eyes wink at, 13 That you turn your spirit against God, And let such words go out of your mouth? 14 "What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? 15 If God puts no trust in His saints, And the heavens are not pure in His sight, 16 How much less man, who is abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water!

 

Peter himself said that Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand. How come those things are easy for you to understand when Peter had problems with them?

Would you care to offer proof for this assertion? No one has said anything about a seminary degree being required, or anything like that.

 

This is one of the lamest objections I have heard (and that is saying a lot). Think about it. You have no seminary degree, yet you were just told what total depravity means in plain language. You just proved your own statement wrong.

Wes, you make this too easy for us.

 

Peter himself said that Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand. How come those things are easy for you to understand when Peter had problems with them?

I, like you, have a better place from which to view Paul's writings than did Peter. We have had 20 centuries to study and understand Paul's writings. Peter had a mere 10 to 20 years to do so.
Furthermore, Peter was a mere fisherman, Paul was a highly educated reformed zealot.

Would you care to offer proof for this assertion? No one has said anything about a seminary degree being required, or anything like that. </font>[/QUOTE]Either keep up or take notes. See the discussion regarding definitions.

 

Oooooooo, I guess you told me.

So we've had 20 centuries to figure out what Paul said, but those things are easy to understand. Yeah.

 

Randomhouse Websters also has definitions.

affect1, v.t.
1. to act on; produce an effect or change in: Cold weather affected the crops.
2. to impress the mind or move the feelings of: The music affected him deeply.
3. (of pain, disease, etc.) to attack or lay hold of.
–n.
4. Psychol. feeling or emotion.
5. Psychiatry. an expressed or observed emotional response: Restricted, flat, or blunted affect may be a symptom of mental illness, especially schizophrenia.
6. Obs. affection; passion; sensation; inclination; inward disposition or feeling.

affect2, v.t.
1. to give the appearance of; pretend or feign: to affect knowledge of the situation.
2. to assume artificially, pretentiously, or for effect: to affect a Southern accent.
3. to use, wear, or adopt by preference; choose; prefer: the peculiar costume he affected.
4. to assume the character or attitude of: to affect the freethinker.
5. (of things) to tend toward habitually or naturally: a substance that affects colloidal form.
6. (of animals and plants) to occupy or inhabit; live in or on: Lions affect Africa. Moss affects the northern slopes.
7. Archaic.
a. to have affection for; fancy.
b. to aim at; aspire to.
–v.i.
8. Obs. to incline, tend, or favor (usually fol. by to): He affects to the old ways.</font>[/QUOTE]My point is made in your use of "affects". Because "a religionist is a person who affects religious zeal" could also mean "produces an unwanted change in religion" or "Persuades the mind that something of religion is different than traditionally described". which is what we see you, Larry and rc, among others, deliberately doing.

Your Christendom is coming to whatever you make it become through your alteration of truth. The Christ's kingdom, on the other hand, is and ever will be what He makes it, not what we perceive it to be.

Slander? Pretty strong word, I guess the shoe that I tossed you really fits for you to give that kind of reaction! You see, once again that "mystery language" rears it's ugly head!

Did I slander you by falsehood by saying that our salvation hear and now is nothing more than a promise? Can you prove that is a falsehood? No you cannot, All you have is your own personal belief that you are saved! As we've seen on this bbs, belief is not necessarily reality. Oh yes your beliefs are real, but the object of your belief may not be a reality, but only a hope of a reality.

 

Brother Cassidy, can you PLEASE show me in Wes' statement his accusing anyone of being unsaved?

Your reasoning of the word affect shows you chose the definition of the word that fit your fight. The FIRST definition wasn't included:


af·fect1
tr.v., -fect·ed, -fect·ing, -fects.
To have an influence on or effect a change in: Inflation affects the buying power of the dollar.
To act on the emotions of; touch or move.
To attack or infect, as a disease: Rheumatic fever can affect the heart.

n.
Feeling or emotion, especially as manifested by facial expression or body language: “The soldiers seen on television had been carefully chosen for blandness of affect” (Norman Mailer).
Obsolete. A disposition, feeling, or tendency.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2004, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

 

Religionist: Excessive or affected religious zeal.

Affect: To have an influence on or effect a change in: To act on the emotions of; touch or move.

Zeal: Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance.

Excessive: Exceeding a normal, usual, reasonable, or proper limit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I see NO place where Wes accused anyone of being unsaved?

Concerning ME, you have said:

Please feel free to report me to Webmaster and all the other Administrators for my perceived 'rule breaking'. In fact, I'll be more than happy to copy and link to this in our moderator forum if you'd like.

Seems to me you're adding to Wes' words by putting words in his answer under a microscope and picking and choosing terms to use as ammunition. You, then, put words in my mouth, Doc.

You, sir, cannot entice me into a word fight.