I am abandoning TULIP

E - Effectual Atonement

The atonement was only for the elect, and Jesus actually atoned for (paid for) all the sins of all elect people. Christ's atonement did not fail for even one intended person. If Jesus died for a person, then that person's sins will certainly be forgiven. The atonement of Christ was 100% effectual.
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How about:

Applied Atonement - Jesus the sacrificial lamb actually died for the sins of the whole world. But as high priest, he only intercedes at the Father's right hand for those whom the Father has given him. Christ paid the penalty for sin but only credits the payment to the sinner's account when by faith and repentance, the regenerate sinner confesses that Jesus is Lord.

 

Christ didn't die to make people "savable". He SAVED. He redeemed. He is a perfect Saviour and fulfills His purpose. If ones sin has been taken away, they are gone, including ALL sin, which includes unbelief. He intercedes for whom He died for. If He died for all, then He intercedes for all. If He intercedes for all, yet many don't believe, Christ has FAILED as an interceder.

But Christ does not fail. He chose, redeemed, and intercedes perfectly and will lose non that are in His hand.

 

only in your pea-brain!

 

Christ didn't die to make people "savable". He SAVED. He redeemed. He is a perfect Saviour and fulfills His purpose. If ones sin has been taken away, they are gone, including ALL sin, which includes unbelief. He intercedes for whom He died for. If He died for all, then He intercedes for all. If He intercedes for all, yet many don't believe, Christ has FAILED as an interceder.
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Calvin didn't think that. Neither did Paul or John!

 

Wrong Paul33,
You are placing rules on God that do not apply.

There is nothing that says Atonement for sin saves even one human.

Christ's death did not save anyone either, but without it, no man is saveable because the wage for Sin is death and all have sinned.

With Christ's death, the penalty for sin has been paid, and no man has to die for sin! That however does not mean that all men will meet the requirement for salvation which is FAITH in God. For by grace, are ye saved through faith...! Who's faith? Man's faith is required for man to be saved. God made it possible by removing the death penalty of sin from man. So the formula for salvation boils down to this:

Faith in God = Salvation by God!

Because Jesus Has proved worthy, He alone can intercede for man. But there is no requirement that says that God the Son must intercede for those who do not believe in Him. And indeed that is a foolish concept, because no one intercedes on behalf of those who do not believe in the intercessor. You do not go to a lawyer you don't believe can do the job for you. So why should you expect God the Son to do what no other intercessor does?

If out of all the cases a lawyer tries, the lawyer loses a few, does that make the lawyer a failure?
Give us a break Paul33, think about what you are saying.

 

You are wrong... What Calvin believed aboiut election,the deadness of man in sin, and the work of intercession bust be considered.

The Fall, 1985 issue of the WESTMINSTER Theological Journal, Roger Nicole made a great 29 page article made arguements that Calvin did hold to a definite atonement.

Or read his commentaries on Ezek 18.32, John 3.16, 2 pet 3.9 , 1 Tim 2.4 and Titus 2.13

“The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” It is usually conceded by us who
hold the doctrine of particular redemption that there was in the death of Christ very
much of generality and universality. We believe that the atonement of Christ was
infinite in value, and that if Christ had decreed to save every man of woman born, he
need not have suffered another pang; there was sufficient in his atonement if he had
so willed it to have redeemed the entire race. We believe also that by the death of
Christ there is a general and honest invitation given to every creature under heaven
in terms like these:—“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” We
are not prepared, however, to go an inch beyond that. We hold that from the very
nature of the satisfaction of Christ it could not have been made for any but his elect;
for Christ either did pay the debts of all men or he did not; and if he did pay the debts
of all men they are paid, and no man can be called to account for them. If Christ was
the surety of every man living, then how in the name of common justice is Christ to
be punished, and man punished too? If it be replied that the man would not accept
the atonement, then I ask again, Was there a satisfaction given, for if so it was
given whether the man accepts or not, or else satisfaction by itself is powerless until
man puts efficacy in it, which is preposterous to suppose. If you take away from us
the fact that Christ really did satisfy for those for whom he stood, we cry like Jacob,
“If I am bereaved I am bereaved;” you have taken away all that is worth having, and
what have you given us in its place? You have given us a redemption which
confessedly does not redeem; you have given us an atonement which is made
equally for the lost in hell and for the saved in heaven; and what is the intrinsic value
of such an atonement? If you tell us that Christ made a satisfactory atonement for
every one of the human race, we ask you how it was that he made atonement for
those that must have been in the flames of hell thousands of years before he came
into this world?

 

But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy. (Hebrews 10:13,14)

 

Once again rc, I did not say that I don't believe what they say, I said, "I did not say that I agree with the council". From that you twisted what I said into "the reasons you don't believe...." Believing and agreeing with are not necessarily the same thing. Stop your infernal twisting, distorting and open lying!

 

But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy. (Hebrews 10:13,14) </font>[/QUOTE]"Perfected" here does not mean saved, it means pardoned from the penalty of sin. No matter how you twist it, Man is required to have faith in God in order to receive salvation! To receive forgiveness for sin you still must confess your sins, because atonement does not forgive sins, it only pays the penalty for them.

 

Wes said:

Wes, Scripture, scripture, scripture.

Plain, black and white letters that say what they say and can be compared with other Scriptures.

Your lack of Scriptures to point to already prove you wrong.

 

Wes, Scripture, scripture, scripture.

Plain, black and white letters that say what they say and can be compared with other Scriptures.

Your lack of Scriptures to point to already prove you wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]

Look familiar? Who's names were written in the book of life? All I'm saying is that it could be every human who ever lived, is living and will live this natural life who's names are written in the book from the foundation of the world. Then during that natural life, those who do not come to faith are blotted from the book of life. There is nothing that I've found related to the book of life that says otherwise. So if one looks at the scriptures on that basis, one can truly see that salvation is by faith alone and not some predestination plan, save for the Key players that God has used for His purposes. Truly you don't believe that all mankind fits into that category do you?

 

Wes,

I think you read my post incorrectly. I agree with everything you just said. I was reacting to RC and his concept that Jesus died only for the elect. I was reacting to the idea that does not distinguish between the death of Christ and the intercession of Christ.

Atonement requires a sacrificial lamb. Christ was that lamb.

Atonement requires a priest to make intercession. Christ was that priest.

Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin. He only applies it to the elect, the ones who repent and believe; the ones regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
So we agree, I think.

R. T. Kendall has conclusively shown that his was Calvin's position.

 

No we do not agree! You included the phrase "he only applies it to the elect,..." I cannot agree with that because it is not depicted ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE!

Atonement for sin is just that, Atonement for sin. It is not applied to anything else, or anyone!

Because of the Christ's atonement for sin, Man, who would die for sins committed, no longer dies for sins committed because the PENALTY for those sins has been paid. There is no such thing as application to "the elect". It is instead "whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life". That is any one out of all can by believing in Jesus, have everlasting life.

What is so difficult for you in understanding that simple truth?

 

Bunk!

Wes, you must be pulling my leg! The elect, however you define it, are those who repent and believe. And Christ only intercedes for the elect! Scripture says that Christ died for everyone's sins. It also says that Christ intercedes for his own. Therefore, there must be a distinction between the "dying as the sacrificial lamb" and the "intercession at the Father's right hand."

Why can't you understand this simple truth?

 

Oh but I do! and I have for over 50 years.
I just don't see what you say about the elect, in scripture.