I am confused.. Please explain this

[evangelist6589]

In church we are doing a apologetics video series study and then discussion groups. In class tonight a question prompted me to give a basic synopsis on the doctrine of Total Depravity and Election, but to my shock the teacher affirmed what I said was true. This shocked me as the church believes in "soul winning" which is Arminian view of evangelism in that the soul can be persuaded by the soul winner to come to faith, and the soul has a choice and a WILL to do so, which totally goes against Total Depravity which teaches man's will is corrupted. The book Share Jesus without fear has allot of good ideas, but is a spit in the face of the doctrine of Total Depravity as the book thinks a sinner can be persuaded to come to faith by human efforts on the part of the soul winner. This all amazed me as the teacher endorsed a Lee Strobel book and his books do not appear to teach Total Depravity but rely on evidence based apologetics.

I am confused as to how someone can believe in Total Depravity and at the same time believe in the Arminian view of soul winning. Can someone explain what I am confused about and about the different views of Apologetics as this book speaks about? Soul Winning is a Jack Hyles term.

Our church seems to model itself after that of Paul Chappell and he is very far from Reformed.

Paul Chappell book on evangelism.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Is your teacher aware of the difference? I would say that a little more than half the congregation at my church doesn't delve into theology and they really just don't know, they may say that God predestined us from the foundation of the world one minute and turn around and say that all men have free will and must choose for themselves. I think I would carefully and respectfully delve into that with your teacher.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

But even if he is arminian, I think they do hold to a "form" of total depravity and I think they believe in election based on God's foreknowledge of whether or not we would accept Him.

 

[Don]

Evangelist--it's because yet again you don't truly understand the difference between Jacob Arminius and Pelagius.

I would encourage you to find a copy, online or in a bookstore, of Arminius' works, and search out for yourself what Arminius really said about things, instead of blindly accepting what neo-calvinists claim Arminius said. It'll take a while; it's not easy to read.

 

[Iconoclast]

evangelist6589

In church we are doing a apologetics video series study and then discussion groups. In class tonight a question prompted me to give a basic synopsis on the doctrine of Total Depravity and Election, but to my shock the teacher affirmed what I said was true.

Why should this be a shock?If you presented bible verses instead of a small lecture The teacher would like the verses.

This shocked me as the church believes in "soul winning"

All Christians believe in "soul winning" some go about it more biblical fashion than others. It is in reality Jesus who "wins " souls....he seeks and saves them.
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

which is Arminian view of evangelism in that the soul can be persuaded by the soul winner to come to faith, and the soul has a choice and a WILL to do so,

Arminianism has it wrong, but if a godly arminian person prays and goes to speak the truth in love, God will many times bless his or her obedience to the command to go. [Thankfully he is sovereign}
It is true that the closer any of us come to scripture the more effective will be the interaction as the Spirit will use the word as He see's fit.
You sometimes seem to lose sight of the fact that the sinner...most likely does not know all the theological terms.....keep that to yourself, and put it in your own words...speak from both your mind and your heart so they know you care for them. God will clear up their theology later on...they have to be pulled into the life boat first.

which totally goes against Total Depravity which teaches man's will is corrupted.

So....God will overcome this in time...do not panic.It is not like the arminian is going to get someone in , by the will of the flesh.

The book Share Jesus without fear has allot of good ideas

,

Then use the good ideas and adapt the rest to a more scriptural model.

but is a spit in the face of the doctrine of Total Depravity

the writer might not understand the biblical idea.....if he or the church you are in understood they would not use that book as a primary source.

You put yourself in this situation.You are surrounded by people who have defective ideas and theology.Are you going to complain everytime one of them says something based on their understanding? What do you think they are going to do?
You need to lay low and spend some time coming to understand the doctrine you profess to hold now.You are a novice...do not crown yourself as a spokesman for all things reformed as you are only beginning to study these things. Other reformed persons will tell you the same thing.

If your posts are sincere and you are not being facetious....you must relax so you do no harm to yourself or others.

as the book thinks a sinner can be persuaded to come to faith by human efforts on the part of the soul winner.

If that is what the book teaches it is in error as far as persuasion.....but some persuasion is helpful to remove obstacles and get back to the sin question.

This all amazed me as the teacher endorsed a Lee Strobel book and his books do not appear to teach Total Depravity but rely on evidence based apologetics.

Lee Strobel is a godly man and he visit here for a few posts before he was chased away. While i would not share his evidential apologetic...he is on the same team and i would pray God uses him mightily.If the day comes I would gladly have a discussion with him on these things...but ...

I am confused as to how someone can believe in Total Depravity and at the same time believe in the Arminian view of soul winning.

Again...why all the confusion? learning is a process.the questions you are asking now...you will not be asking in 9 years.
A biblical arminian...is a calvinist in training.An unbiblical arminian is a false religious convert working in the strength of his own flesh.
A biblical calvinist is still learning and serving God from His new heart, an unbiblical calvinist memorizes the system and theological terms...but also serves in the flesh and will split hell wide open.God is the judge of all such persons...so do not stress over it.

Soul Winning is a Jack Hyles term.

it comes from proverbs 11....

Our church seems to model itself after that of Paul Chappell and he is very far from Reformed.

That is the church you are in....what do you think they are going to do?
You need to think more on what you know and how to correctly live it and use it.:thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

the church believes in "soul winning" which is Arminian view of evangelism in that the soul can be persuaded by the soul winner to come to faith, and the soul has a choice and a WILL to do so, which totally goes against Total Depravity which teaches man's will is corrupted.

I agree with you here for the most part. But I would qualify some things. As Christians we are to preach,teach and spread the Gospel. We realize that the Lord is responsible for the results. We are simply vessels or instruments that He uses for His purposes. We must heed the Great Commission. We need to urgently tell others of their dangerous situation --that they stand in great peril if they don't beieve and repent of their sins --to rely on Christ alone for their salvation.

Soul Winning is a Jack Hyles term.

He may have used it a lot --but he didn't originate it! It comes from Proverbs 11:30 :The one who wins souls is wise.

Now we realize that the Lord is the one who saves -- not us. the term needs to be fleshed out. But it is not the exclusive property of Arminians. Charles Spurgeon had a work called "The Soul-Winner." He was a strong Calvinist.

Have you heard of George Whitefield's chapel? It was called "The Soul Trap."

Read more widely is my counsel. You jump the gun a lot.

 

[John of Japan]

Soul Winning is a Jack Hyles term.

Soul-winning is a Bible term, not specifically a Jack Hyles term. It is a common term among modern evangelicals way back into the 19th century. Many used that exact term before Hyles, including Calvinist Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) in his book The Soul Winner, R. A. Torrey (1856-1928) in The Wondrous Joy of Soul Winning, and John R. Rice (d. 1980) in The Soul Winner's Fire, which he wrote long before Hyles was around. J. I. Packer talks about winning someone to Christ in Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, p. 123. I suggest you need to read more on personal evangelism than WOTM.

I believe in total depravity because the Bible teaches it. The difference comes in the work of the Holy Spirit, who Biblically can be resisted (Acts 7:51), meaning that His work is not irresistible. The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin (John 16:8), something their depravity prevents them from knowing without His work.

 

[Luke2427]

Soul-winning is a Bible term, not specifically a Jack Hyles term. It is a common term among modern evangelicals way back into the 19th century. Many used that exact term before Hyles, including Calvinist Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) in his book The Soul Winner, R. A. Torrey (1856-1928) in The Wondrous Joy of Soul Winning, and John R. Rice (d. 1980) in The Soul Winner's Fire, which he wrote long before Hyles was around. J. I. Packer talks about winning someone to Christ in Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, p. 123. I suggest you need to read more on personal evangelism than WOTM.

And as fine as some of the men you list are, it does not change the fact the term is based on a misapplication of a verse in proverbs.

Jesus said we need to "make disciples." That's not only a better term based on more sound hermeneutics, it is also an immeasurably better philosophy of ministry.

This Gospel tract inundated, repeat this sinner's prayer after me mess has been instrumental in making us the backwards, shallow, anemic church we are in this country.

Making disciples is what the church ought to be doing. Saying it right will help our people practice it right. They will start to see "soul winning" as a means to an end not an end itself and they will see ministry as a long term commitment to someone, not just get as many people to say this prayer as we can.

I believe in total depravity because the Bible teaches it. The difference comes in the work of the Holy Spirit, who Biblically can be resisted (Acts 7:51), meaning that His work is not irresistible. The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin (John 16:8), something their depravity prevents them from knowing without His work.

Every Calvinist believes that all that men ever DO is resist the Spirit of God until they are regenerated. So, you set up a big fat straw man there.

Every Calvinist I know believes that sinners resist the grace of God and the Spirit of God constantly right up until that moment when God decides they won't resist them any more. Then, at that moment, the Spirit of God and the grace of God is irresistible.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is your teacher aware of the difference? I would say that a little more than half the congregation at my church doesn't delve into theology and they really just don't know, they may say that God predestined us from the foundation of the world one minute and turn around and say that all men have free will and must choose for themselves. I think I would carefully and respectfully delve into that with your teacher.

Thats called a blended church.....gotta please everybody...no rocking the apple cart. Eventually correct doctrine goes out the window.

 

[Rippon]

Thats called a blended church.....gotta please everybody...no rocking the apple cart. Eventually correct doctrine goes out the window.

I don't think that's the right take on the matter EWF. Many churches --with largely regenerate folks simply don't put things together in a coherent way. It's just like Jacob said. They recognize one biblical truth but then in the next breath that's pushed aside for a sentimental or philosophical approach. They don't even understand their inconsistency. That's why I have often said the very unoriginal remark that Arminians become Calvinists on their knees.

Here's a quote from A.W.Pink:"Our age is marked by industrial loafing and mental slackness."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with Arthur.

 

[John of Japan]

Our church seems to model itself after that of Paul Chappell and he is very far from Reformed.

Paul Chappell book on evangelism.

"Actually, we are not even the real soul winners: the Holy Spirit is. We are just the 'delivery boys' of the Good News. If our motive for delivering the message of Jesus Christ is anything other than pleasing its Author and carrying out His will, we fail" (To Seek and to Save, by Paul Chappell, p. 6).

"A common misconception regarding soul winning is that someone can learn a little speech and in his own strength and charisma, be able to win people to the Lord. Some approach soul winning as a salesman would approach a sale. A salesman can get a person to buy a product, whether he believes in the product or not. A person cannot be saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and only the Holy Spirit can bring about that decision" (ibid, p. 22). :type:

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree with you here for the most part. But I would qualify some things. As Christians we are to preach,teach and spread the Gospel. We realize that the Lord is responsible for the results. We are simply vessels or instruments that He uses for His purposes. We must heed the Great Commission. We need to urgently tell others of their dangerous situation --that they stand in great peril if they don't beieve and repent of their sins --to rely on Christ alone for their salvation.

He may have used it a lot --but he didn't originate it! It comes from Proverbs 11:30 :The one who wins souls is wise.

Now we realize that the Lord is the one who saves -- not us. the term needs to be fleshed out. But it is not the exclusive property of Arminians. Charles Spurgeon had a work called "The Soul-Winner." He was a strong Calvinist.

Have you heard of George Whitefield's chapel? It was called "The Soul Trap."

Read more widely is my counsel. You jump the gun a lot.

I am aware of the NIV & KJV's rendering of the verse, however the ESV does not include that phrase but says "captures souls". I agree with the bolded material. I also agree that not everyone knows everything, and yes there are allot of novices out there, sadly of which many are authors and pastors.

 

[evangelist6589]

Soul-winning is a Bible term, not specifically a Jack Hyles term. It is a common term among modern evangelicals way back into the 19th century. Many used that exact term before Hyles, including Calvinist Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) in his book The Soul Winner, R. A. Torrey (1856-1928) in The Wondrous Joy of Soul Winning, and John R. Rice (d. 1980) in The Soul Winner's Fire, which he wrote long before Hyles was around. J. I. Packer talks about winning someone to Christ in Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, p. 123. I suggest you need to read more on personal evangelism than WOTM.

I believe in total depravity because the Bible teaches it. The difference comes in the work of the Holy Spirit, who Biblically can be resisted (Acts 7:51), meaning that His work is not irresistible. The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin (John 16:8), something their depravity prevents them from knowing without His work.

The NIV & KJV use the phrase but the ESV says "captures souls." No I have not read those books and was not aware of them, as you are correct 95% of my evangelism reading is from WOTM materials as I have half a dozen books by Ray, and I plan to read some of them more than once. It is true I have other books by other evangelists, however I did not comprehend as much by their books, or I did not care. But yes perhaps I need to even buy more books. Can you give me 1 book of the list you mentioned worth getting my next paycheck? Thank you.

 

[evangelist6589]

Thats called a blended church.....gotta please everybody...no rocking the apple cart. Eventually correct doctrine goes out the window.

This describes my church. Blended... They do not dive into doctrine. However eschatology is another matter and they do take their stand of which I respect them for this.

 

[Rippon]

But yes perhaps I need to even buy more books. Can you give me 1 book of the list you mentioned worth getting my next paycheck? Thank you.

You don't need to buy more which will only set you back. Does your church have a library,or your city/town? Do you have friends that can lend you books? There are alternatives to buying.

 

[evangelist6589]

"Actually, we are not even the real soul winners: the Holy Spirit is. We are just the 'delivery boys' of the Good News. If our motive for delivering the message of Jesus Christ is anything other than pleasing its Author and carrying out His will, we fail" (To Seek and to Save, by Paul Chappell, p. 6).

"A common misconception regarding soul winning is that someone can learn a little speech and in his own strength and charisma, be able to win people to the Lord. Some approach soul winning as a salesman would approach a sale. A salesman can get a person to buy a product, whether he believes in the product or not. A person cannot be saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and only the Holy Spirit can bring about that decision" (ibid, p. 22). :type:

Perhaps Ray Comfort in his wonderful book The Way of the Master should read other authors before he criticizes them. He does lots of that in the book, but not as much detailed research. While I love WOTM, I have noticed his books usually are not endorsed by high profile scholars and Bible teachers. Mark Devers book on evangelism was endorsed by many of these, but neither Paul Washer nor the 9 Marks website even mentioned any of Ray's books as a recommended reading on evangelism.

I do love WOTM, however it probably is not material that many seminaries will call scholarly work.

 

[Rippon]

The NIV & KJV use the phrase but the ESV says "captures souls."

Actually the NIV does not use the KJV wording. It has:"the one who is wise saves lives." at the end of the verse. The NET Bible renders it:"The one who wins souls is wise" at Pro.11:30b.

I just looked at the 83 NIV and it did have "he who wins souls is wise." But I primarily use the 2011 NIV Anglicised edition.

 

[evangelist6589]

You don't need to buy more which will only set you back. Does your church have a library,or your city/town? Do you have friends that can lend you books? There are alternatives to buying.

I do not have any friends in my local area interested in theology and I won't get that at the church as most are not into theology. In fact I am not aware of a single person, and from the class yesterday I learned one of the deacons did not understand the word Total Depravity... Only if I could attend a local Reformed church, but that is another debate.

My town has a library but what makes you think they will carry theology books?

 

[evangelist6589]

Actually the NIV does not use the KJV wording. It has:"the one who is wise saves lives." at the end of the verse. The NET Bible renders it:"The one who wins souls is wise" at Pro.11:30b.

Thats the NIV 2011 version. Check out the NIV 1984 version of which I have on my desk.