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"I am neither a calvinist nor arminian"

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Apr 12, 2005.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Diane, I don't know why you think whetstone is trolling, or why you think his post is absurd, but I strongly disagree.

    I don't agree with all he said, or maybe the way he said it, but his points are valid and worthy of honest discussion.
    </font>
    • Calvinism and Arminianism are not terms denoting who you follow, but how you are classified.</font>
    I don't recall whetstone claiming that Calvin's name was in the bible. And he is right. The two terms are shorthand for our position on things relating to soteriology.
    </font>
    • I have read non-Calvinists say. But they prove their own ignorance by making such a statement.</font>
    I don't see whetstone calling anybody either a fool or ignorant. However, he is correct that non-calvinists, like Calvinists, often make statements out of ignorance. Just read the vast majority of the posts in this forum to see the evidence of that fact. I certainly have made statements based on my own ignorance, and I suspect that all honest debaters will admit the same.
    </font>
    • There is a barren wasteland between the classifications of Calvinist and Arminian theology. You are either entirely one, or the other to a certain degree. You cannot be 'neither.'</font>
    I agree with some of the things many Calvinists believe and disagree with some of the things many Calvinists believe. There is no unified, monolithic block of dogma that all Calvinists (or even Particular Baptists) agree to.
    </font>
    • You are either a proponent of 5 point Calvinism, or your lean towards the other end of the spectrum.</font>
    A person who holds a different position on one point would be a 4 point Calvinist and a 1 point Arminian (which, ironically, is what James Arminius was, a 4 point Calvinist who disagreed with Unconditional Election).

    If a person disagrees with 2 points of Calvinism he would be a 3 point Calvinist and a 2 point Arminian.

    Etc., etc., etc.
    </font>
    • Keep denying it. You make yourself very obvious when you do.</font>
    I think he may have been referring back to the "ignorance" above.
    If you're questioning the salvation of board members based on their following the teachings of John Calvin, I'll be more than happy to take this to the moderator forum.</font>[/QUOTE]Uh, Diane, that is not what he said. He said that people are saved through a personal relationship with Christ based on faith in Him alone for salvation. He is saying that those who do not put their faith in Christ alone for salvation are lost. I don't know all the members but I would assume that some are saved and some are lost (as with almost any large group, including most churches. The BB has several thousand members and it would be incredulous to assume that all are saved). Those who trust in Christ as Savior are saved and those who trust in something other than Christ as Savior are lost. Isn't that what the BB is all about? Christ?
     
    #21 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Augustinianism, Pelagianism, and semi-pelagianism. [​IMG]
     
    #22 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  3. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Augustinianism, Pelagianism, and semi-pelagianism. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]All three "systems" were unbiblical
     
    #23 icthus, Apr 12, 2005
  4. natters

    natters New Member

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    Another reason one cannot be classified as one or the other is that they simply do not know or have not decided which, if either, they think is correct. So yes, it's VERY easy to be neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian.
     
    #24 natters, Apr 12, 2005
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Come on, Diane. This is beneath you. I believe in most aspects of all 5 points of TULIP and it was God, through His word, Who made it clear to me. Not John Calvin. I think Calvin was not only a heretic, but a terrible legalist, and a man with a monstrous ego that refused to allow any disagreement with his pronouncements. John Calvin is not my prophet, he is not Pastor Larry's prophet, and he is not whetstones prophet. And, when you lay aside your emotional reactions, I think you know that too. [​IMG]
     
    #25 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  6. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    that's right...my prophet is BENNY HINN! haha. just kidding.
     
    #26 whetstone, Apr 12, 2005
  7. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Then why not call themselves something other than a Calvinist? Why not use a scripture or biblical term instead of the name of a mere man who condemned another man to death because he taught against infant baptism (and the trinity)?

    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm
     
    #27 dianetavegia, Apr 12, 2005
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Well, knowing you are something and being something are not necessarily the same thing.

    Let's look at the 1st point of TULIP and decide if we agree or disagree.

    T = Total Depravity. If we agree we are Calvinist in this one point. If we disagree, and deny total depravity we are Arminian in this one point.

    By way of illustration. Would the non-calvinists reading this agree or disagree with this statement?
    Agree or Disagree?
     
    #28 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  9. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    diane, the servetus thing is nothing new. We WEREN'T the ones that coined the term 'calvinist.' I agree with you- i'd rather go by 'particular baptist' 'reformed' or one who holds to 'the doctrines of grace.' I use the term 'Calvinist' because you know what i mean. i would gladly change the term tomorrow if i had that power.
     
    #29 whetstone, Apr 12, 2005
  10. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Whetstone, give it a rest man! You Calvinists (for this is what you really are), come out the biggest load of nonsense, when you calim that what you believe are "the doctrines of Grace". Giving the very false impression, that those opposed to Calvinism, some how demean the Grace of God. Why don't you guys, like Cassidy and Larry just grow up and stop trying to make Calvinism the ONLY way to follow God!
     
    #30 icthus, Apr 12, 2005
  11. natters

    natters New Member

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    I agree. However, some people simply haven't made up their minds yet. For example, I've seen many rapture debates where it was basically "are you pretrib or posttrib?" kind of discussions. Most fell into one or the other category. But there were others that were midtrib, some were posttrib but amillennial, some were even preterist. Others simply didn't know and didn't want to be in any specific classification, seeing strengths (and sometimes problems) in two or more of the views simultaneously. Someone who says "I'm not sure if pretrib or posttrib is more correct - I'm just going to understand the issues as best I can and trust God." is neither pretrib nor posttrib. Someone with a similar approach to Calvinism/Arminianism is neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

    And what if someone is unsure?

    I have fairly specific views on the Calv/Arm debate, but I'm talking in generalities here, examining (and disagreeing with) the original post 's premise that one "cannot be 'neither' in this topic".
     
    #31 natters, Apr 12, 2005
  12. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    By the way, I consider myself a 'particular baptist' . As I firmly believe that Jesus died for everyone in particular.
     
    #32 icthus, Apr 12, 2005
  13. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    (I never said I wasn't)

    Well as salvation hinges on grace rather than will, it is more of an adequate title than the opposing position.

    You said it not me [​IMG]

    Should I also stop telling people that Christ is the only way to God too? Should I cease to speak the truth when it becomes offensive to people?
     
    #33 whetstone, Apr 12, 2005
  14. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    it's perfectly acceptable to be unsure. [​IMG] I'm unsure about other issues as well.
     
    #34 whetstone, Apr 12, 2005
  15. natters

    natters New Member

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    Should I also stop telling people that Christ is the only way to God too?
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, just the first one. [​IMG]
     
    #35 natters, Apr 12, 2005
  16. natters

    natters New Member

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    it's perfectly acceptable to be unsure. [​IMG] I'm unsure about other issues as well. </font>[/QUOTE]If one is unsure, as you say is "acceptable", then one is neither Calvinist nor Arminian (yet). Yet your first post said one couldn't be neither.
     
    #36 natters, Apr 12, 2005
  17. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    And this is why I said on another thread that some Calvinists keep changing their rules, minds, remarks....
     
    #37 dianetavegia, Apr 12, 2005
  18. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    just because one claims he hasn't made up his mind doesn't mean he has no belief in the matter. If i ask you a question about total inability and you say you agree/disagree with the statement, we can get an idea of where you stand even if you claim not to be sure. if you TRULY have no opinion of all 5 points of Calvinism, you aren't 'neither' you are 'undecided.' Saying 'undecided' doesn't denote a belief. saying 'neither' implies that there is some sort of third area of belief.
     
    #38 whetstone, Apr 12, 2005
  19. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Whetstone, you sure know all the answers for a 23 year old. :rolleyes: I've been saved twice as many years as you've been alive.
     
    #39 dianetavegia, Apr 12, 2005
  20. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Larry;
    From the looks of things your first post must be wrong
    There are lot's of things addressed by the rules Larry. Maybe it just your interpretation. :D
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
    #40 ILUVLIGHT, Apr 12, 2005
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