"I am neither a calvinist nor arminian"

Prior to getting on this Baptist Board, I had never even heard of the term arminianism, nor heard of the man behind the term, although Mr. Calvin was familiar to me. So this C/A debate has been most fascinating to me as I have discovered the apparent obsession of some to "classify" Christians (as if denominations aren't enough!)

In the process of researching this topic (which is, as I have discovered, an IMMENSELY time-consuming and convoluted undertaking) I have learned that, although raised from DAY ONE in a Baptist church, and having NEVER attended a Methodist service on more than a VERY rare occasion with various friends, I actually believe as John Wesley did--although I never knew what the precise term was til now: Prevenient Grace:

" Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer." (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_Grace)

I believe that God is COMPLETELY omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent--and that He can do anything He so chooses....but that He CHOSE to give us free will and CHOSE to allow us to execute it fully and completely as WE choose. Since ALL CREATION was created by Him and speaks of Him, there is a natural (as in "God-created") yearning inside of us DESPITE the Fall--NOT out of any remaining "goodness" in us, but simply because GOD DESIGNED US THAT WAY....so that we WOULD "miss Him" and search for Him, even when we know not what it is we seek. Based on THIS point, am I truly arminian? Partially calvinist? Where do I fit on the sliding scale?

 

So they're lying about being undecided?

What about conditional agreement, or partial agreement?

Undecided IS neither.

It can mean that, but not necessarily.

Speaking of a "third area", I know people who think Calvinists and Arminians are both just looking at different sides of the same elephant, and that the real truth is a superseding truth that incorporates and reflectss aspects of both, since God is omnipotent and not limited by our finite perspectives in time and space.

 

I don't think that was her point.

 

I took it to mean that younger people often get excited on one train of thought, and that once you've been "in the game" for a few more years, you realize that sometimes things are not so cut-and-dried. That is not being "wiser", but realizing that maybe you aren't as wise as you thought you were.

 

Folks we have a genuine prophet here to tell us what God does and doesn't care about! Tell me- why would God care about a sparrow falling, but not care about the beliefs of one of His children?

If they are so petty and meaningless, why are you getting so indignant? </font>[/QUOTE]Because it is people like you who insist on labeling people like me with petty, meaningless, absurd, classifications! What a wearysome nuisance.

 

I meant it as it sounded. Whetstone is a 23 year old young man. (I want to use the term kid here but don't want to REALLY offend yet I call our children ages 34, 29, 28 and 10 our kids).

At 23, I would caution a young person not to think too highly of their own opinion. Many of us have forgotten more than you'll ever know.

When I was in my 20's, an older wife reminded me of the verse

I learned much very soon after that when looking back at that 'reminder'.

 

I learned much very soon after that when looking back at that 'reminder'. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Diane,

I'm pushing 40 and I still know it all. When does that change?

 

I'll be 41 in a few months myself. Wish I knew the truth of the doctrines of Grace like whetstone does at 23. I didn't leave my Arminian ways until I was 31.

 

Well..... you're a GUY, right?

I'm old enough to know I don't know it all but I know how much I hate being labeled something I am NOT!

 

Wisdom is not equal with age, neither is youthfulness the equal of being unwise.

Job 32:6-10 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said: "I am young in years, and you are aged; therefore I was timid and afraid to declare my opinion to you. I said, 'Let days speak, and many years teach wisdom.' But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.
It is not the old who are wise, nor the aged who understand what is right.
Therefore I say, 'Listen to me; let me also declare my opinion.'

 

Well..... you're a GUY, right?

I'm old enough to know I don't know it all but I know how much I hate being labeled something I am NOT! </font>[/QUOTE]Good one - I guess I asked for that.

No one likes to be labeled as something that they are not, or be accused of believing something that they don't. I think that's the biggest cause of hurt feelings and heated discussions.

 

And this is exactly why calvinist are so ineffective. If you don't believe in all five pts of Calvin's teachings you are not a calvinist.HOwever you can totally disagree with arminius (sp) and still be arminian. That is exactly the type of calvinist blinders use to defeat strawmen rather then deal with what a person is actually saysing, and is one of the many illogical statements that come out of the calvinist camps. I love it. I enjoy a good debate or discussion with a humble calvnist. One of the reason I love NOrman Giesler, besides being a great bible scholar he is a humble man who does not hesitate to share the gospel. (know him from being around him)His book Chosen but Free is fantastic. When I picked it up I already had my idea of predes. elect etc and I can say that I agree 100% with his book. His interptation of scriptures seems to be right on the money.

[ April 12, 2005, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Timtoolman ]

 

A GREAT BIG AMEN ! (by the way some of my best friends are calvinist, grin)

 

Augustinianism, Pelagianism, and semi-pelagianism. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Mr cassidy you told me arminius believed in eternal security. So I went back and double check some of his works on the internet. HOw do you come to that so far I see that he did not believe in eternal security?

Tim

 

Should I also stop telling people that Christ is the only way to God too?
</font>[/QUOTE]No, just the first one. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

No one likes to be labeled as something that they are not, or be accused of believing something that they don't. I think that's the biggest cause of hurt feelings and heated discussions. [/QB][/QUOTE]

ON the road to recovery. I think I am starting to like you whatever?