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"I am neither a calvinist nor arminian"

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Apr 12, 2005.

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  1. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Absolutely Agree!
     
    #61 dianetavegia, Apr 12, 2005
  2. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Absolutely Agree! </font>[/QUOTE]So do I. Of course, this doesn't disprove Calvinism. It only proves that some Calvinists aren't very good at logic.
     
    #62 whatever, Apr 12, 2005
  3. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
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    Terriloo, that would make you a Wesleyan-Arminian. Feel free to PM me. [​IMG]
     
    #63 padredurand, Apr 12, 2005
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And my oldest is 40 and my youngest 31, but that has no bearing on whetstone's wisdom nor on the correctness of his arguments. [​IMG]
    Personally I think that sounds rather arrogant. We don't really know how much whetstone knows nor do we know how much he will know in the future.

    When I was his age I had been in the Army for 5 years, and was an officer overseeing professional non-coms almost twice my age. Never once did one of those professional warriors disrespect me because of my age. They were far too professional for that sort of thing. [​IMG]

    And, I would be the last one to single out whetstone for advice concerning pride. The problem with using the bible as a weapon is how often that particular weapon tends to backfire! [​IMG]
     
    #64 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    When I graduated from High School I knew everything there was to know about everything. When I got my Bachelor's degree I realized there may be a few things I didn't know. When I got my Master's degree I realized there was quite a lot I didn't know. And when I got my Doctorate I realized how little I actually knew. I think it is some kind of reverse geometrical progression. Or would that be a geometrical regression. I don't know. (See! I don't know! It's getting worse!) :D :D
     
    #65 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  6. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Well now see, I only went to Tift Baptist Women's College for 2 years so I don't have as much to forget so I may be smarter than I think I am.

    Hubby was an Army Officer too, at the age of 23 and had his Engineering Degree BEFORE that. [​IMG]
     
    #66 dianetavegia, Apr 12, 2005
  7. Doc Yankum

    Doc Yankum New Member

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    Another area of ignorance has been displayed.
    Posted by dinanetavegia:

    Can you show me John Calvin's name in the
    Bible?
    Answered by whetstone:

    Show me the word "Christian" in the Bible and
    I'll show you the word "Calvinist"

    whetstone, please read Acts 26:11 and become enlightened. Perhaps you know your 5 points and nothing else.
     
    #67 Doc Yankum, Apr 12, 2005
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Did you read his writings or the writings of his followers Simon Episcopius and Jan Uytenbogaert? They published the Remonstrance, which we call the "5 points of Arminianism" today, in 1610, one full year after Arminius died. Or you may have been reading the writings of someone later than even Episcopius or Uytenbogaert.

    Jacobus Arminius was a noted scholar and a strict Calvinist and taught Calvinism at the university of Leyden.

    His only disagreement was strict Calvinism was his belief that election was conditioned on the foreknowledge of God looking ahead and seeing who would have faith and electing them on that basis.

    However, Simon Episcopius and Jan Uytenbogaert added considerably to what Arminius taught and ended up denying, in whole or part, all 5 points of Calvinism. However, regarding the last point, eternal security, they said,
     
    #68 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Padredurand, is just another 'bean counter'.

    This is a pinto bean that is a navy bean, Oh, there's a garbanzo bean, and a coffee bean, and look there's string bean, and butter bean, and lima bean, butter bean's leaner cousin, and I See castor bean, vanilla bean, yes we have black beans, red beans, jelly beans, Dean's beans, jumping beans, baked beans, pole beans, snap beans, green beans, asparagus bean, aduki bean,anasazi bean, appaloosa bean, bolita bean, Bonavista bean, borlotti bean, boston bean, broad bean,cannallini bean, calypso bean, chili bean, red eye bean, eye of the goat bean, flageolet bean, lupini bean, mung bean, rattlesnake bean, kidney bean, etc., etc., etc. I've only left out about 200 more varieties of beans.

    The point is, no matter what the name of the bean, those are all beans.

    The same thing applies to factions of the Christian church. No matter what name one associates with if you have faith in the Christ, you are a Christian. So why all the names! They are only means by which the church remains UNUNIFIED!
     
    #69 Wes Outwest, Apr 12, 2005
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    My oldest brother used to tell me, "The more you know, the more you forget. The more you forget the less you know. The less you know the less you forget. The less you forget the more you know! Why study?"

    Of course he got his Business degree from Wharton and his DDS from from Tufts so I guess he didn't take his own advice. [​IMG]
     
    #70 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  11. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
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    Actually, Wes I was just answering terriloo's question about Prevenient Grace. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I used to admire your spirited jousting on this thread but now I remember why I stopped posting over here.

    I am one of those Wesleyan-Arminian beans. I am not ashamed of it. My day is neither made or ruined by the type of bean I may be, the type of bean someone thinks I should be, nor rejection by beans that are different than me including the beans that think I am dead wrong.

    The only offense I may take is that beans give me copious amounts of gas which will leave all of you in cyberspace uneffected but creates an interesting atmosphere at home.
     
    #71 padredurand, Apr 12, 2005
  12. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Whetstone.
    You opened up this thread with this statement:

    I am a born again Christian that is a 0-point Calvinist who believes in the eternal security of the saints (not the same as the perseverance of the saints BTW). That means in effect that I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian now doesn't it?
     
    #72 JackRUS, Apr 12, 2005
  13. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    I am a born again Christian that is a 0-point Calvinist who believes in the eternal security of the saints (not the same as the perseverance of the saints BTW). That means in effect that I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian now doesn't it? </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily. Some Arminians believe in eternal security, so it depends on what else you believe.
     
    #73 whatever, Apr 12, 2005
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    How does your understanding of eternal security differ from the Calvinist's understanding?
     
    #74 TCassidy, Apr 12, 2005
  15. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities.

    You were mistaken. But then so was I. The word Christian actually DOES appear in the NT twice. Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16. I had forgotten about these cases. I acknowledge my faux pas and apologize.
     
    #75 whetstone, Apr 13, 2005
  16. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    As for the other topic that came up after i left (har har!) I actually have 3 1/2 years of college from Pensacola Christian College (an Arminian school!). I plan to attend BJU this fall to finish my degree. That means i have more schooling at 23 than diane does at however old she is. not to make a point of it of course. It was already mentioned that age really has no bearing on whether someone is right or if truth is truth. I have met some pretty insightful 18 year olds, and some pretty moronic 60 year olds.

    On a similar note, a disease that tends to plague older folks is that they let their guard down. They have 3/4's of a lifetimes knowledge and get the impression they have 'arrived.' We young-uns are still learning and growing- and are willing to change our minds if capably proven that we should do so. I was a 4 point arminian last year. Would i have changed my mind if i were 50? Doubtful. I would 'know it all' already. Thank the Lord I am still at a pliable age and still willing to change my mind if I am convinced I'm wrong. I hope upon hope I am still this way at 50.
     
    #76 whetstone, Apr 13, 2005
  17. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Did you read his writings or the writings of his followers Simon Episcopius and Jan Uytenbogaert? They published the Remonstrance, which we call the "5 points of Arminianism" today, in 1610, one full year after Arminius died. Or you may have been reading the writings of someone later than even Episcopius or Uytenbogaert.

    Jacobus Arminius was a noted scholar and a strict Calvinist and taught Calvinism at the university of Leyden.

    His only disagreement was strict Calvinism was his belief that election was conditioned on the foreknowledge of God looking ahead and seeing who would have faith and electing them on that basis.

    However, Simon Episcopius and Jan Uytenbogaert added considerably to what Arminius taught and ended up denying, in whole or part, all 5 points of Calvinism. However, regarding the last point, eternal security, they said,
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am trying to find his works but I keep getting bad links but every source I have come across says he did not believfe in eternal security. Let me show you so far what I have.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism ..."Uncertain Perseverance: Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit, sufficient to enable them to persevere in the faith. But it may be possible for a believer to fall from grace. "
    http://web.archive.org/web/20040202075437/www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gvcc/theology_notes/Calvin_and_Arminius.html " 5.Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.

    http://www.postmodernclog.com/archives/000065.htmlD- Diminished Depravity
    A- Abrogated Election
    I- Impersonal Atonement
    S- Sedentary Grace
    Y- Yieldable Justification

    http://www.afcministry.com/Arminianism_Examined.htm

    I am still searching but I have read some of his works and if I was a betting man I would bet you to be dead wrong. As a matter of fact a couple of those articles listed above say J ARminius had many and great disagreement with calvin. I think you need to do a little more research before you make that statement.
     
    #77 Timtoolman, Apr 13, 2005
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The problem with the links you posted is that none of it was written by Arminius. Had you read the paragraph from which the second quote is taken you would have seen it says, "After Arminius' death, his views were championed and further developed and systematized by two men, Simon Episcopius, and Jan Uytenbogaert." The words you quoted were not the words of Arminius, but of Episcopius and Uytenbogaert.
    Actually the articles say Arminians had many and great disagreements with Calvinism. According to Arminius's own writings he only disagreed regarding the condition of election. Arminius was called upon to counter the arguments of a layman named Koornhert who had published an argument against Beza's (Calvin's successor) teaching regarding supralapsarianism (which not even Calvin believed). Not only did Arminius not counter Koornhert's writings, he also came to deny unconditional election. He didn't deny election, he only denied election was unconditional, but rather believed it was conditioned on the foreknowledge of God that the person would, some day, repent and believe.
    Well, my research started about 50 years ago and culminated in a Ph.D. in Ecclesiastical History probably sometime before you were born. [​IMG] Do another search and find the information about Arminius as opposed to the information about his followers. I will even help you get started. Try this link http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/cal_arm.htm Enjoy. [​IMG]
     
    #78 TCassidy, Apr 13, 2005
  19. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    How come you were deceived at 31?
     
    #79 icthus, Apr 13, 2005
  20. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    How come you were deceived at 31? </font>[/QUOTE]have you considered the possibility you are deceived icthus? I mean- maybe you're right. maybe all of us calvinists are the ones that are wrong. but have you considered at least the possibility that we're not?
     
    #80 whetstone, Apr 13, 2005
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