"I am neither a calvinist nor arminian"

Timtoolman · Apr 13, 2005

Originally posted by TCassidy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am still searching but I have read some of his works and if I was a betting man I would bet you to be dead wrong.
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The problem with the links you posted is that none of it was written by Arminius. Had you read the paragraph from which the second quote is taken you would have seen it says, "After Arminius' death, his views were championed and further developed and systematized by two men, Simon Episcopius, and Jan Uytenbogaert." The words you quoted were not the words of Arminius, but of Episcopius and Uytenbogaert.

As a matter of fact a couple of those articles listed above say J ARminius had many and great disagreement with calvin.
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Actually the articles say Arminians had many and great disagreements with Calvinism. According to Arminius's own writings he only disagreed regarding the condition of election. Arminius was called upon to counter the arguments of a layman named Koornhert who had published an argument against Beza's (Calvin's successor) teaching regarding supralapsarianism (which not even Calvin believed). Not only did Arminius not counter Koornhert's writings, he also came to deny unconditional election. He didn't deny election, he only denied election was unconditional, but rather believed it was conditioned on the foreknowledge of God that the person would, some day, repent and believe.

I think you need to do a little more research before you make that statement.
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Well, my research started about 50 years ago and culminated in a Ph.D. in Ecclesiastical History probably sometime before you were born. Do another search and find the information about Arminius as opposed to the information about his followers. I will even help you get started. Try this link http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/cal_arm.htm Enjoy. [/QUOTE]That is just another article too and it also states that he believes a person my fall away. You are the only person in the last 10 years of dealing with calvinist to say otherwise. That link refutes you. Got anything to back what you say up? I had to come back and edit this. Just went back and read that link again. It says exactly the opposite of what you are argueing. So maybe I am missunderstanding. Are you saying J. Arminius believed in eternal security....the fact that a christian could not fall from grace and lose his salvation? If so I will tell you have been misled greatly and it seems for a long period of time.

Timtoolman · Apr 13, 2005

Anyone else want to jump in that can help us find some source on this? I had gotten into a link a while back that actually had 3 vol of his works but that link is bad now. Reading it is like reading calvinist works. ... like chewing on dried leather. I am sure it state arminius believed one could lose his salvation. Among other things.

TCassidy · Apr 13, 2005

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
That is just another article too and it also states that he believes a person my fall away.
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Remember, Arminius did not write the 5 points of the Remonstrance. He died the year before those five points were written by his followers. The large body of writings he left behind at the University where he taught right up until the time of his death shows that he was a believer in the eternal security of the saints of God (although he stated it in terms quite difficult to understand due to his being a very deep and analytical man). It was only after his death that his followers brought eternal security into question.

Are you saying J. Arminius believed in eternal security....the fact that a christian could not fall from grace and lose his salvation? If so I will tell you have been misled greatly and it seems for a long period of time.
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No, the writings of James Arminius did not mislead me. They say exactly what they say. Arminius was an honest man and wrote down, honestly, what he believed and was willing to stand by his beliefs no matter the consequences. I don't think he would try to deceive anyone regarding what he believed. One of the problems today is that people don't study history but just take the word of those revisionists who would try to change what history really teaches us to conform to their own biases.

The link I gave you showed the present day changes that have been made to Arminianism. But if you read the original articles you will see that they said they didn't know if a man could lose his salvation

But for the question whether they are not able through sloth or negligence to forsake the beginning of their life in Christ, to embrace again this present world, to depart from the holy doctrine once delivered to them, to lose their good conscience and to neglect grace--this must be the subject of more exact inquiry in the Holy Scriptures, before we can teach it with full confidence of our mind.
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And even that is much more than James Arminius said. Here is his response

With regard to the Second Article, I say, that a distinction ought to be made between power and action. For it is one thing to declare, that "it is possible for the faithful to fall away from faith and salvation," and it is another to say, that "they do actually fall away." This distinction is of such extensive observance, that even antiquity itself was not afraid of affirming, concerning the elect and those who were to be saved, "that it was possible for them not to be saved;" and that "the mutability by which it was possible for them not to be willing to obey God, was not taken away from them,"—although it was the opinion of the ancients, "that such persons never would in reality be damned."—On this very subject, too, the greater part of our own doctors lay down a difference: For they say, "That it is possible for such persons to fall away, if their nature, which is inclined to lapses and defection, and if the temptations of the world and Satan, be the only circumstances taken into consideration: but that they will not finally fall away, because God will bring back to himself his own elect before the end of life." If any one asserts, "that it is not possible for believers, in consideration of their being elect persons, finally to fall away from salvation, because God has decreed to save them, "I answer, The decree concerning saving does not take away the POSSIBILITY of damning, but it removes damnation itself. For "to be actually saved," and "a possibility of not being saved," are two things not contrary to each other, but in perfect agreement.

I therefore add, that in this way I have hither to discriminated these two cases: And at one time I certainly did say, with an explanation subjoined to it, "that it was possible for believers finally to decline or fall away from faith and salvation." But at no period have I asserted, "that believers do finally decline or fall away from faith or salvation." This article therefore is ascribed to one who is not its author; and it is another offence against historical veracity.
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Timtoolman · Apr 13, 2005

Originally posted by whetstone:
As for the other topic that came up after i left (har har!) I actually have 3 1/2 years of college from Pensacola Christian College (an Arminian school!). I plan to attend BJU this fall to finish my degree. That means i have more schooling at 23 than diane does at however old she is. not to make a point of it of course. It was already mentioned that age really has no bearing on whether someone is right or if truth is truth. I have met some pretty insightful 18 year olds, and some pretty moronic 60 year olds.

On a similar note, a disease that tends to plague older folks is that they let their guard down. They have 3/4's of a lifetimes knowledge and get the impression they have 'arrived.' We young-uns are still learning and growing- and are willing to change our minds if capably proven that we should do so. I was a 4 point arminian last year. Would i have changed my mind if i were 50? Doubtful. I would 'know it all' already. Thank the Lord I am still at a pliable age and still willing to change my mind if I am convinced I'm wrong. I hope upon hope I am still this way at 50.
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Hey Whetstone I have a son who is a freshman this year at BJ. A voice major, look him up. He is a calvinist. you two can discuss where the old man went wrong. His name is Justin Rettger. Great Kid. Great theologian for his age, dispite the calvinist bit that is. (like I said, some of my best friends are calvinist)

whetstone · Apr 13, 2005

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Hey Whetstone I have a son who is a freshman this year at BJ. A voice major, look him up. He is a calvinist. you two can discuss where the old man went wrong. His name is Justin Rettger. Great Kid. Great theologian for his age, dispite the calvinist bit that is. (like I said, some of my best friends are calvinist)
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haha i like him already.

David Michael Harris · Apr 15, 2005

Christ has called us to freedom, how easy it is to get bogged down with yokes of slavery, no matter what form they take. And yet saying that I will not argue with TULIP, it seems pretty correct to my understanding of Scripture, but there are warnings to Christians in the NT

David
<°)))><

rsr · Apr 15, 2005

A link to Arminius' writings:

WORKS OF JAMES ARMINIUS

Links to more:

CHRISTIAN ETHEREAL LIBRARY

David Michael Harris · Apr 15, 2005

Originally posted by rsr:
A link to Arminius' writings:

WORKS OF JAMES ARMINIUS

Links to more:

CHRISTIAN ETHEREAL LIBRARY
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Just give me something of interest. I have a main book by Rowan Williams. Maybe thats different subject but still points your way.

Actually ignore this, its to do with JW's

Man I am tired.

David
<°)))><

rsr · Apr 15, 2005

My sentiments respecting the perseverance of the saints are, that those persons who have been grafted into Christ by true faith, and have thus been made partakers of his life-giving Spirit, possess sufficient powers [or strength] to fight against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh, and to gain the victory over these enemies — yet not without the assistance of the grace of the same Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ also by his Spirit assists them in all their temptations, and affords them the ready aid of his hand; and, provided they stand prepared for the battle, implore his help, and be not wanting to themselves, Christ preserves them from falling. So that it is not possible for them, by any of the cunning craftiness or power of Satan, to be either seduced or dragged out of the hands of Christ.

But I think it is useful and will be quite necessary in our first convention, [or Synod] to institute a diligent inquiry from the Scriptures, whether it is not possible for some individuals through negligence to desert the commencement of their existence in Christ, to cleave again to the present evil world, to decline from the sound doctrine which was once delivered to them, to lose a good conscience, and to cause Divine grace to be ineffectual.

Though I here openly and ingenuously affirm, I never taught that a true believer can, either totally or finally fall away from the faith, and perish; yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such a kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding. On the other hand, certain passages are produced for the contrary doctrine [of unconditional perseverance] which are worthy of much consideration.
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— James Arminius, Declaration of Sentiments

David Michael Harris · Apr 15, 2005

Originally posted by whetstone:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Doc Yankum:
Another area of ignorance has been displayed.
Posted by dinanetavegia:

Can you show me John Calvin's name in the
Bible?
Answered by whetstone:

Show me the word "Christian" in the Bible and
I'll show you the word "Calvinist"

whetstone, please read Acts 26:11 and become enlightened. Perhaps you know your 5 points and nothing else.
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Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities.

You were mistaken. But then so was I. The word Christian actually DOES appear in the NT twice. Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16. I had forgotten about these cases. I acknowledge my faux pas and apologize. [/QUOTE]Acts buddy...Antioch...where we first got the name from our hard working companions.

Just pick yourself up and get on with it.

David
<°)))<<

ILUVLIGHT · Apr 15, 2005

Hi RSR;
I thought what you posted from Arminus was interesting. However I got this from an arminian site and they claimed that this is what the original Remonstrance contained.

1. God from eternity past determined to save all who believe in Jesus and to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath..."

2.Christ died for and obtained redemption and forgiveness for all, but these benefits are effective only for those who believe on Christ.

3.Man cannot "think". will or do anything that is truly good, and that includes "saving faith" But must be regenerated

4.That God's grace is absolutely essential for Salvation, but that it may be resisted.

5.That those truly saved through faith in Christ are empowered by the Holy Spirit to resist sin; But weather they could fall away from the faith "must be more particularly determined by the Holy Scripture, before we our selves can teach it with full persuasion of our minds."

Sort of opposite of what you presented. Did Arminius change his mind latter?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

padredurand · Apr 15, 2005

Mike, Arminius was dead for 10 years before the Synod of Dort met. Arminius himself was much closer to Calvin than the Arminian "remonstrants" who presented their case.

One of Beza’s pupils, Jacob Arminius, however, began to doubt these principles, chiefly after reading William Perkins’ Aurea Armilla, which he felt destroyed human initiative and responsibility in salvation. He thus countered it with his Examen Praedestinationis Perkinsianae, and devised five points which he felt were more acceptable: 1. God bestowed salvation from eternity on those he foresaw would persevere to the end in their faith; 2. Jesus atoned for all mankind but only believers can partake of its benefit; 3. Regeneration and conversion are dependent on the gift of the Holy Spirit; 4. All good works are the product of operations of grace in the believer but this grace can be resisted by the perverse will of the sinner. 5. All such believers can triumph over Satan’s seduction but whether or not such may fall from grace cannot be determined until more insight is gained into the Scriptures by the churches.
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hen, in 1605, the Classis of Dort decided that a synod should be called to counter these points, Arminius and Francis Gomarus (1563-1641), a Belgian and co-professor with Arminius at Leyden, protested, saying that though there was contention amongst the students, the professors were in agreement on doctrine and would thus strive to mediate between the students. Arminius died in 1609 and his followers immediately became more radical and lax even rejecting Arminius’ ‘moderate Calvinism’ teaching on justification. In 1610, they presented a plea for less stringency in doctrinal matters, strongly remonstrating against the States General. Hereafter, the Arminians were thus nick-named ‘Remonstrants’ and believers in the doctrines of grace ‘Contra-Remonstrants’.
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The Synod of Dort link

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