I'm doing what I desire. I can't choose what I love, and don't love.
Sin is in the heart, dude. The things one desires, and for which he hungers are not chosen. Your heart is either corrupt or not. You either love darkness or light.
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I Believe In Free Will
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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Sin is in the heart, dude. The things one desires, and for which he hungers are not chosen. Your heart is either corrupt or not. You either love darkness or light.
Oh, REALLY? Did Jesus reach down & grab you, or did you choose to come to Him? And if He stood at your "door" & knocked, did He kick the "door" open or did you let Him in?
[qiote]Christ's words settled it for me. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, and a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.[/quote]
Can GOD not make a corrupt tree into a good one?
But Sneaky Snake didn't FORCE either of them to disobey God. They CHOSE to, being persuaded & deceived by Sneaky Snake's words.
Yes, I know God did indeed force Himself on certain of His servants. He made Moses an offer he couldn't refuse. He knew jeremiah before he was born. Jesus showed Paul an undeniable display of His power.. But for most of os, our faith came by hearing, and hearing, from the worda God.
...BY OUR CHOICE!
Rockson
Active Member
I think you'd do well Aaron to go back and read that verse not just a part of it but all of it.
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Matt 7:15,20
He's talking about false prophets and not the subject of man's nature as you would link it to a total depravity proof text.
HopefulNChrist
Member
His words to the Jews are applicable to the Gentiles after the Jews had rejected their chief cornerstone.
I am not a Calvinist. But with His help and wisdom, I will acknowledge the whole of scripture in keeping the truth aligned with the meaning of His words to us today.
The O.T. saints were in Abraham's bosom ( Luke 16:19-31 because of Hebrews 11:13-16 ) aka Paradise and that was where Jesus had gone to after His death in meeting the thief that day ( Luke 12:42-43 ). So when His spirit descended beneath the earth ( Ephesians 4:8-10 ) to preach the gospel to those in prison ( 1 Peter 3:18-19 ), it was the O.T. saints of Abraham's bosom that were resurrected that day after His resurrection ( Matthew 27:53-54 ), and not everybody in hell. Now Paradise is located in the third Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 ) after His ascension in leading the captive in captivity.
Addressing your statement does require context.
John 10:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Your application of verse 9 is in error when verse 9 is testifying to the Creator in lighting every man that came into the world; that is not teaching that every man has received Him in coming into His kingdom as obvious in verses 10 & 11.
How one does receive Him is obvious in verse 7 above where all men "might" believe in Him and verses 12-13 below on salvation by believing in His name..
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Do consider that with Him at that throne of grace for wisdom in applying verse 9 rightly within context of what His words mean.
As the Creator, He lights every man coming into the world, but the world of men did not know Him nor had they received Him when He had come, and so only by believing in Him as our Redeemer, even in His name, is how any man is saved.
So context does matter, brother.
Thank you everyone for responding... After hearing all the comments I decided I would try a little experiment to test this doctrine of free will... So I am taking a magical elixir labeled eternal life... I shall take my elixir to of all places a cemetery... I will just pick a grave at random and hold this elixir in my hand and tell the one passed on, if you will just come up here and take this elixir you can have eternal life... Everyone on here would think I'm a nut case and soon men in white coats would put me in a strait jacket and take me away... Until the heart of the dead alien unregenerate sinners heart is changed by God, he or she who is the ground has as much ability as one who thinks they have free will to come to Christ... Btw robycop3 show me a dead man that has a choice?... I don't see mans free will to come to Christ in the following verses would someone show it to me?... Brother Glen
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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HopefulNChrist
Member
Did Adam and Eve have free will? Seems like they and everybody after them has been paying for it. Small pun there in this discussion.
Rockson
Active Member
I don't believe those particular ones are from Matthew 13:13. He spoke in parables until the time appointed where all would be revealed which it appears was Acts 2. After that things were plainly laid out. We read in Acts 6:7 that even many of the Priest became obedient to the faith. The disciples had some revelation beforehand but even Jesus told Peter don't tell anyone that he was the Christ.
Well that's good. Lets just all of us keep examining scripture with scripture and pray for greater understanding. I acknowledge that's my prayer as well for myself.
I've agreed with everything you've said there. I'm not a universalist. That verse though about the wise men and prophets is connected and joined with the very verse which talks about truth being hidden from some of these Jews. With Abraham and all what was that then? The theme of progressive revelation being the issue. not that these Jews in Jesus time would never be saved. Just the fullness of understanding to them had to be delayed in order for the plan of salvation to be carried out.
Again I totally agree with you. My position is light is released to all through the preaching of the gospel. Such doesn't mean people don't reject the light. I agree they do. I see you're new here joined the other day. I can see how you took my statements as a universalist position but if you knew all my posts it would show that I'm not.
I agree with that too but when he lights every man coming into the world through the preaching of the gospel it could never be said those who rejected it weren't enlightened. The saw the light but went another direction.
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Rockson
Active Member
Well Tyndale the big problem with using this analogy is that if you're going to go this way in saying spiritual death is the same as physical, because physical dead people can't respond therefore spiritual can't either well then you're going to have to go with every other aspect of it too.
That means spiritual dead people can't sin. Why? Because they're dead. Spiritual dead people can't think or reason anything either for physically dead people can't as well. You know that's not true. So what about it? Are you just going to use your analogy in only a way that suits you and not apply it to the full scope of what it should mean on other levels? The verses you quoted later are of course great verses BUT but ask yourself if you're not going into them with a flawed analogy.
Very flawed
*sigh*
You would do well to learn to read. When Jesus says a corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit, He is citing a universal, non-optional principal to support his argument. He's not saying an evil tree can bear no good fruit only in the case of prophets.
Duh.
What does posting here have to do with the will of the lost being in bondage to the law of sin and death and the saved being bound to the law of New Life in Christ?
Are you suggesting Aaron is lost?
Is Romans 8:2 a lie or is the lost man in bondage (IE, NOT free) to the law of sin and death?
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Still arguing the straw man about "grabbing" and "kicking down doors."
Did I let Him in? No. I rejected Him. I was His enemy (at least according to the bible). I not only didn't "let Him in" I couldn't "let Him in."
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
HopefulNChrist
Member
If you were to apply Matthew 13:10 & 13 as limiting what He has said in the context of Matthew 13:10-16 to answering His disciples' question to whom He was speaking to presently, that would mean Matthew 13:11-12, & 14-16 does not apply to any one else, but if you look at His words in those verses, it does apply to Gentiles that do not believe in Him at the calling of the gospel.
I am not sure which parable you are referring to where it will be revealed and appearing to be plainly laid out in Acts 2, but some of those has to deal with being ready for the Bridegroom or else miss out on the Marriage Supper in Heaven when He comes at the pre great trib rapture event; like in Luke 14:15-33.
So not sure what you had meant by that statement when obviously His parables were not all revealed or laid out in Acts 2. .
But not all as some arose to put Stephen to death. As many as there were, apparently not enough to stop it. Not even Saul until he was on the road to Damascus to continue the persecution of Christians after succeeding in the death of Stephen when Jesus, Himself appeared to Saul to lift up his sights higher in recognizing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
I am sure after His resurrection, they were allowed to worship and wait until they had received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father which happened on the day of Pentecost to tell others then I am not sure what parable alludes to that, though. He plainly spoken of those things without it being a parable, even though at the moment, I cannot recall a parable to what you are alluding to in Acts 2..
Amen.
Faith. They believe God and took Him at His word.
True.
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Sine only Jesus Christ can bring them to God, then it would have to be after His crucifixion, descension to preach to those in prison, His resurrection, and His ascension first, bring the Firstfruit of those that have slept.
I am glad that you are not a universalist, but there is no verse that says that light is released to all through the preaching of the gospel for how you are applying it to mean. In context of John 1:9, His lighting every man that comes into the world is just referring to bringing his existence into the world. More on that next on how you are applying it.
To be enlightened is to understand and receive the Light, thus receiving Him. Therefore the light that is released to all through the preaching of the gospel can only be received by believing in the preaching of the gospel.
In the same way that He came into the world, and the world did not know Him nor had received Him, so is the Light coming into the world through the preaching of the gospel given to all, but only those who believe in Him are "enlightened" as the darkness did not comprehend the Light nor Him.
In one sense, I can understand your point of view where in the parable of the sower, the seed sown where the crows came and took the seed away to prevent it from taking root in heart would be about the unbeliever. They heard the Good News, but did not receive the Good News and so remain as unbelievers. This is hardly enlightenment in any respect to unbelievers.
Free Will is the ability to make a choice. You seem to separate it somehow. The bondage to be in sin does not eliminate choices, The influence of Sin , even to the saved, does not restrict choices just the ability to make good choices. If Aaron did not have Free Will , he could not make a decision to post here on his own,
We have Free Will in doing good also, not just to sin .
Rockson
Active Member
*sigh*
Why not keep this in context? He is talking there about false prophets and what they'd produce and put out. The false prophets fruit is their teaching and in this verse it by no means is meant to be a proof text for Calvinistic total depravity.
If you're going to handle the text that way than it should be demanded of you to say a Christian therefore cannot sin. You would call a Christian a good tree with a new nature connecting it into the Matt 7 verse?
Then why is it a Christian can and does periodically sin IF as you say a good tree CANNOT produce bad fruit? Well such would be an extreme way of handling the text? Exactly. So why do it the other way around and feel you're justified in so doing?
(I think I'll pass on putting down "Duh" like you did me. I'm not interested in showing you disrespect)
No, it's not. "Free will" is the denial of the law of sin and death.
Yes, I separate the true meaning from your false meaning.
Nobody said it did. I have said over and over and over again that everybody makes choices every day.
Which has noting at all to do with the bondage of the will.
Non-sequitur.
Here, let me help you. Read "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther. It will open your eyes to the truth.
Free will is not denial of the law of sin and death. Free will does not choice the consequence of our decisions. We make decisions everyday without out knowing the consequences. We operate our free will within the limits of God's permissive will. We cannot , in our free will, choose to override God's will. But within the limits of His permission, we have free choice.
If you do not have free choice, who is making you post?
If I no free choice , how sin occur?
What is your definition of Free Will ? because this is our of character for you?
Free Will is not the denial of sin and death, it has no consideration but the power to act without constraint or in ones discretion. It is autonomy.
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