I Believe In Free Will

[Aaron]

Well hold on now. Great verse above but the way you would use it would be to say you who are a good tree, (as you would call it) you cannot sin. And yet you do sin. I'd hope that you're not going to claim you're sinless perfection. That scripture above is only a absolute reality as you choose to remain In Him.

When you get out of faith and walk by sight you'll sin. Thus Matt 7: can't be giving an absolute portrayal of the nature of man every moment 24/7. Even false prophets as spoke of in Matt 7 doesn't mean in any part of their lives they can't do good things. They might provide well for their families and do many good things. It's not saying people are evil in any absolute sense of the word, or better put it can't be used to demonstrate absolute depravity.

You've conveniently left out the Romans verse, but this is a facet of Redemption that needs careful study, and can be woefully perverted by carnal reasoning. But it doesn't submit itself to be judged by the carnal mind, any more than Christ's statement, Ye must be born again.

It is impossible for God to lie, and it is impossible for that which is born of Him to lie.

We're told also it's impossible to deceive the elect with a false Gospel. Matthew 24:24

Redemption isn't restoring man to his condition in the Garden. In the Garden, man was merely made. A creature. Subject to corruption. But in Redemption, man is begotten of God, a son, a partaker of the divine nature. Uncorruptible.

But we still abide in the bodies of this death, in the members of which the law of sin and death war against that which is born of God. And when I sin, it is not I that sins.

Unfortunately, I have to add more verbage, because someone is going to say, Wow, I can sin all day then. Or, I can sin more and more so that grace abounds more and more. In that, they reveal their love for sin. That's the carnal mind reacting to this teaching. They had better mind the lessons of the Law until they've learned to love Christ. This teaching isn't for them. It's for the Redeemed. For those who love righteousness.

You're a teacher in Israel, and you don't understand these things?

 

[Aaron]

That scripture above is only a absolute reality as you choose to remain In Him.

wow. That's not what it says at all.

It says God's seed remains in the redeemed, not that the redeemed choose to remain in Christ.

Wow. Open your eyes, son.

 

[Rockson]

wow. That's not what it says at all.

It says God's seed remains in the redeemed, not that the redeemed choose to remain in Christ.

Wow. Open your eyes, son.

Remain in Me,(Jesus said) and I will remain in you.(why tell them to remain if they couldn't do the opposite) Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. John 15 4-6

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Bondage does not eliminate choices just restricts the ability to make good choices. Sinners have Free Will in sin continuing doing evil. The ability to continue in sin is even Free Will.

That is not what Paul said when he spoke of his efforts in keeping the law by his religious flesh and will power in Romans 7 .

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

That is why Jesus did not ask His disciples to make an oath or a promise or a commitment to follow Him because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak so therefore what is impossible with men, is possible with God when a believer follows Him by faith alone, trusting in Him and all His promises to us as our Good Shepherd.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

We may have the illusion of free will as a sinner, but the sinful nature pretty much has power over us from seeing the Truth, until God the Father draws us to the Son ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His Son to us ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) so we can believe in Him as our believing in Him is a work of God also. John 3:18-21

 

[HopefulNChrist]

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we can do nothing.

You are to apply that verse with this understanding with the other scripture about how "you" were able to believe in Him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Behind the scene on how God the Father draws men from the ones He does not draw unto the Son by knowing the sinners prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

That is proof that our believing in Him is a work of God too. You can see God's omnipresence in knowing who would receive Him from those not seeking Him at all in the early days of the church in the mission field at the time His disciples.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

It all falls under God being God in knowing who would receive the gospel message from those that would not. That means in spite of the burden of wondering whether or not there are people in hell that never heard the gospel, we can know that God would have provided the gospel to any & all that He knew would have received Him for why they would never be in hell.

That is God's promise below to every sinner that claims they would have believed in Him if they had heard the gospel for why they would never be in hell. We do not have to worry about any one in hell that never heard the gospel.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[TCassidy]

Please explain the difference between your free choice and free will.

Everybody makes choices. But the will is in bondage to the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2.

Something does not follow

Yes, that is what I have been trying to tell you. You are trying to debate a subject you don't understand.

 

[TCassidy]

Now, if those people couldn't make their own choices,

And right off the bat you go to your misinformation. "Free will" has nothing to do with making choices. People make choices every day, but that does not change the fact that Romans 8:2 is still in the bible.

 

[InTheLight]

And right off the bat you go to your misinformation. "Free will" has nothing to do with making choices. People make choices every day, but that does not change the fact that Romans 8:2 is still in the bible.

And this is why I rarely participate in these debates anymore. Wholesale changes of commonly used terminology is necessary for the Calvinist to make their systematic theology "work".

 

[TCassidy]

And this is why I rarely participate in these debates anymore. Wholesale changes of commonly used terminology is necessary for the Calvinist to make their systematic theology "work".

Yes, of course. The actual meaning of terms cannot be allowed to stand or those who think man can do that which the bible says he can't might prevail.

Just like the modalists try to redefine "Trinity" to mean "3 Gods."

Arminians try to redefine "free will" to mean making choices when it actually refers to the bondage of moral agency, not making choices. But if the deniers ever admit "free will" refers to the bondage of moral agency and not making choices they will have to admit that lost people are lost, that "dead in trespass and sin" means "dead in trespass and sin" and that the carnal mind is at enmity against God, does not accept or receive Spiritual things, he considers them foolish, and he CANNOT know them because they require spiritual discernment which the lost man lacks.

How sad. How utterly, utterly sad.

 

[InTheLight]

Yes, of course. The actual meaning of terms cannot be allowed to stand or those who think man can do that which the bible says he can't might prevail.

Just like the modalists try to redefine "Trinity" to mean "3 Gods."

Arminians try to redefine "free will" to mean making choices when it actually refers to the bondage of moral agency, not making choices. But if the deniers ever admit "free will" refers to the bondage of moral agency and not making choices they will have to admit that lost people are lost, that "dead in trespass and sin" means "dead in trespass and sin" and that the carnal mind is at enmity against God, does not accept or receive Spiritual things, he considers them foolish, and he CANNOT know them because they require spiritual discernment which the lost man lacks.

How sad. How utterly, utterly sad.

Keep digging...

 

[InTheLight]

Let's see... over the years I've read from Calvinists (Reformed theology adherents, Particular Redemptionists, etc.) here on BB that:

John Calvin has nothing to do with Calvinism.
Free Will has nothing to do with making choices.
Foreknow has nothing to do with knowing something before.
"Whosoever believes" means "those that are already believing".
Kosmos is a Greek word that means "the elect"
"The world" in some verses means anyone and in other verses it means "the elect"

 

[Rockson]

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If I understand correctly the subject we're discussing is whether man's will is free...is it independent from his actual nature or is his nature and will one and the same. The passage above I believe demonstrates they're different. His reasoning from his will aspect looks upon the law as good. He'd like to keep it for he said in vs 15 that which he hates he does. In vs 18 he says for to will is present with him, which signifies what his inward man thinks with his will is that he'd like to carry out a righteous standard.

He even states that he delights in God after the inward man vs 22 BUT he refers to the problem of the sinful nature . So a sinner is not so depraved that he can't want God....or want to walk in a higher moral capacity he just lacks the power to do so. So God's message to him basically in the New Covenant is to forget all that that is keeping the moral standard of God by the power of the flesh.

You can't do that even though you might want to or long to by your will, but rather just choose to allow me to impart in you a new creation, which is the life, love and nature of God. You have the capacity to actually walk in that by an act of your will.

So man's will always has been FREE but free will IS NOT the ability to achieve everything. One can and people have chosen to seek to achieve the unachievable and have been met with frustration but their will was free all the time. And as seen above their inward desires can be different then their natures as well. Just ask anyone who is bound by any number of social vices smoking/alcoholism or whatever you can imagine and they'll confirm to you that such is the case.

 

[TCassidy]

John Calvin has nothing to do with Calvinism.

Calvin has nothing to do with Redemption, Particular or otherwise.

Free Will has nothing to do with making choices.

It hasn't, unless you redefine "free will" to mean "make choices." Unfortunately too many Arminians don't understand that "free" means "not in bondage."

Foreknow has nothing to do with knowing something before.

Of course it does, but that is not the only correct understanding of προεγνω. To slavishly translate every use of a word to exactly the same thing is just stupid.

The Arminian translation of John:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and wind, he can’t enter into God’s Kingdom.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the wind is wind.
7 Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’
8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the wind.”

"Whosoever believes" means "those that are already believing".

Yes, an Arminian believes an unbeliever believes then becomes a believer. LOL!

Kosmos is a Greek word that means "the elect"

Nonsense. κοσμος is a word that can mean a government or an arrangement. It can also mean the entire universe or just the planet earth. Sometimes it means the inhabitants of the earth. Sometimes it means the whole mass of humanity who are alienated from God. Or several other context driven meanings.

"The world" in some verses means anyone and in other verses it means "the elect"

See above for correction of your failure to understand the meaning of "world."

 

[HopefulNChrist]

If I understand correctly the subject we're discussing is whether man's will is free...is it independent from his actual nature or is his nature and will one and the same. The passage above I believe demonstrates they're different. His reasoning from his will aspect looks upon the law as good. He'd like to keep it for he said in vs 15 that which he hates he does. In vs 18 he says for to will is present with him, which signifies what his inward man thinks with his will is that he'd like to carry out a righteous standard.

He even states that he delights in God after the inward man vs 22 BUT he refers to the problem of the sinful nature . So a sinner is not so depraved that he can't want God....or want to walk in a higher moral capacity he just lacks the power to do so. So God's message to him basically in the New Covenant is to forget all that that is keeping the moral standard of God by the power of the flesh.

You can't do that even though you might want to or long to by your will, but rather just choose to allow me to impart in you a new creation, which is the life, love and nature of God. You have the capacity to actually walk in that by an act of your will.

So man's will always has been FREE but free will IS NOT the ability to achieve everything. One can and people have chosen to seek to achieve the unachievable and have been met with frustration but their will was free all the time. And as seen above their inward desires can be different then their natures as well. Just ask anyone who is bound by any number of social vices smoking/alcoholism or whatever you can imagine and they'll confirm to you that such is the case.

I reckon if one has a different definition of what free will means, then there will always be a disagreement on this issue.

You refer to " for to will is present with me" to prove the existence of free will, but the rest of that verse and verse 19 shows the lack of power in that will to hardly make that free will. When the ability or power behind the choice to carry out the choice made by man's will isn't available to be called free will, then where is there any basis to call the will of man as free will?.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

When it comes to salvation, man has no "free will" to choose when his will needs help from the Father to be able to believe.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I thank God the Father in Jesus's name for my believing in His Son to be saved.

 

[TCassidy]

Here is a 3rd grade primer on the meaning of "free."

Free: NOT in bondage. Not in chains. Not locked in a prison cell.

Bondage: Not free. In chains. Locked in a prison cell.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free (no longer in bondage) from the law of sin and death.

By receiving new life in Christ, He set me free (no longer in bondage) from the law of sin and death (that I was formerly in bondage to - not free - in bondage).

So we have two very different definitions of "free will."

The Arminian definition says that the bible is wrong and that the lost man was not in bondage, but was free.

The actual definition which says the lost man was not free, but in bondage to the law of sin and death, just as the bible says.

 

[InTheLight]

Here is a 3rd grade primer on the meaning of "free."

Free: NOT in bondage. Not in chains. Not locked in a prison cell.

Bondage: Not free. In chains. Locked in a prison cell.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free (no longer in bondage) from the law of sin and death.

By receiving new life in Christ, He set me free (no longer in bondage) from the law of sin and death (that I was formerly in bondage to - not free - in bondage).

So we have two very different definitions of "free will."

The Arminian definition says that the bible is wrong and that the lost man was not in bondage, but was free.

The actual definition which says the lost man was not free, but in bondage to the law of sin and death, just as the bible says.

Now do "will".

 

[Rockson]

Arminians try to redefine "free will" to mean making choices when it actually refers to the bondage of moral agency, not making choices.

Sheer nonsense Cassidy! Free will has always, I mean ALWAYS been about making choices from the Garden of Eden and beyond.

But if the deniers ever admit "free will" refers to the bondage of moral agency and not making choices they will have to admit that lost people are lost, that "dead in trespass and sin" means "dead in trespass and sin" and that the carnal mind is at enmity against God, does not accept or receive Spiritual things, he considers them foolish, and he CANNOT know them because they require spiritual discernment which the lost man lacks.

You can't talk about free will really without choice options. Or you're left with free will about what? We're not left in a vacuum. God has provided new information or choices to be made with the gospel. If he didn't we would be in the place where our wills would mean nothing. Sin and death would be our plight period. But it's not. We have our choice and by our free will we decide.

Your speaking about the carnal mind being at enmity with God....aren't you failing to appreciate that with the preaching of the gospel God pierces through all that darkness with light and has a message the spirit or the inward man can see? Now he has the choice....what type of mind will you embrace? Will you keep and retain the carnal mind or will you embrace the spiritual.

Such was the thing with Adam & Eve. It wasn't so much about the fruit but really will you be moved by divine revelation alone or will you choose the carnal...the natural....and they looked at the fruit and considered or reasoned it was good to eat! They chose the carnal BUT their spirits could have chosen the spiritual. So again with sinners today...God is encouraging a decision for him but he doesn't make the decision. They do such by their own will JUST LIKE Adam & Eve did. As a side note have any of you Calvinists ever considered that God never did it the way you say he works in the beginning? Even the OP poster says #1 that God gave free choice in the beginning. Well what ever happened to the God who changes not?

 

[Rockson]

Now do "will".

I'm looking forward to our dear brother's answer to that...if he will...and then join the two together and what does one have.

 

[TCassidy]

Now do "will".

The faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.

 

[TCassidy]

Sheer nonsense Cassidy!

[Sarchasm]
Yes, of course. It is nonsense to think that "free" means "not in bondage." "Not in chains." "Not in a prison cell."

Yes. That is nonsense. It is nonsense to think that Jesus sets us free from sin, and the bondage of sin.

Yes, it is nonsense to believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins.

Yep. All just nonsense. We were always free. We didn't need Christ! We were always free! [/Sarchasm]