I believe in predestination and free will.....??

[Havensdad]

I could go on and on with scripture as well, but it would fall on deaf ears, I'm afraid. I don't suppose any of us came to this thread with an open-mind and an open-heart, allowing the Lord to speak to us and teach us.

I used to be a "free willer". Scripture was pointed out to me one day, that I just could not argue against. I replied with some nasty comments about God's nature if such were true: it was at this point I realized, despite what I had said to the contrary, that it was my personal feelings which were controlling me, and guiding my theology, not the Spirit of God. After much prayer, and tears, God revealed Himself to me as known through the doctrines of Grace.

We are to be settled in our minds. We are not to be "blown about" with every wind of doctrine. I now feel absolutely ashamed at the "smart" comments I made about God as described by Calvinists: for the Spirit has utterly convinced me it is the One True God.

We came to it with our minds made up and scripture to back it up. We set out to disagree, though we know no good will come of it. Why do we do this? Entertainment? Conversation? Venting frustrations?

In hopes that, through the Spirit, others will be convinced of the truths God has shown to me. I am convinced that until we align our beliefs with the Word of God, and understand who He is, the Church will continue it's downward spiral into worldliness.

I do have an honest to goodness question-----If God decided before the world began who would be saved and who would go to Hell, then why the need for missionaries? Why the need for evangelists? Why the need for Paul?

Because that is God's means. Why, after praying for God to protect your children, do you still tell them to look both ways before they cross the street. Do you not believe God will protect them?

The fact is, there is always a dichotomy in scripture: everything the way God views it, and everything the way it is to us. The fact is, regardless of what view you hold, the people who are going to be saved, has already been decided. Whether it was due to "foreseen faith" or God's sovereign hand, EVERYONE'S eternal destiny has already been set. So the exact same thing goes on the other side: why evangelize?

If you take Jesus' spiritual idea of "a good tree produces good fruit", and apply it to the area of theology, you will be amazed. Calvinistic churches have BY FAR outperformed the other Churches in this area. Overseas missions, evangelism, outreach; historically most of them have come from Churches upholding the five points, at the least.

No, dear brethren, God didn't cast any one away. He will love all but not force Himself on any. He will call to all, just as the parable where they were bidden to the wedding. Some will reject, sadly. He still keeps bidding. Come. Come. Come. What a merciful Father!

He called to all: everyone rejected Him, including us. Salvation is by Grace, THOUGH faith, NOT by faith unto Grace.

 

[MB]

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology writes [page 322], as follows:

Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.

Anyone of adult mind and reasonable comprehension of their own nature knows this to be true.

This shows the man's ignorance of the scriptures. There isn't one place where man is described as unable to respond. Many listen and try to understand and don't this is true. Yet those who listen long enough will eventually become convinced. It isn't a choice man makes to listen but is a drawing to not ignore it. The story of King Aggrippa proves man can be convinced because even he said he was almost convinced. What stopped his convincing was rebellion. He rejected it. In order for one to be almost convinced one has to understand what is being said. This claim of a disability to understand is not true. There are men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
It is impossible to hold the truth and not understand it because if you don't understand it then you do not hold it.
MB

 

[webdog]

used to be a "free willer". Scripture was pointed out to me one day, that I just could not argue against. I replied with some nasty comments about God's nature if such were true: it was at this point I realized, despite what I had said to the contrary, that it was my personal feelings which were controlling me, and guiding my theology, not the Spirit of God. After much prayer, and tears, God revealed Himself to me as known through the doctrines of Grace.

We are to be settled in our minds. We are not to be "blown about" with every wind of doctrine. I now feel absolutely ashamed at the "smart" comments I made about God as described by Calvinists: for the Spirit has utterly convinced me it is the One True God.

yet the opposite is true for me. I was leaning heavily towards TULIP, and "God revealed Himself to me" that the soteriology is false through much prayer and studying of the TULIP "proof texts". With an open heart and mind, it became clear the proof texts were presupposed. Fact is, both camps claim the same thing.

 

[Spinach]

yet the opposite is true for me. I was leaning heavily towards TULIP, and "God revealed Himself to me" that the soteriology is false through much prayer and studying of the TULIP "proof texts". With an open heart and mind, it became clear the proof texts were presupposed. Fact is, both camps claim the same thing.

I agree with the bolded part.

 

[Amy.G]

yet the opposite is true for me. I was leaning heavily towards TULIP, and "God revealed Himself to me" that the soteriology is false through much prayer and studying of the TULIP "proof texts". With an open heart and mind, it became clear the proof texts were presupposed. Fact is, both camps claim the same thing.

Same for me. As was witnessed right here on the BB.

 

[Spinach]

Just a quick side note----so you have names/titles for the two beliefs of this thread. Is there a name for what I believe (re:Jews being the elect, predestinated and the Gentile having free will)?

 

[Havensdad]

Just a quick side note----so you have names/titles for the two beliefs of this thread. Is there a name for what I believe (re:Jews being the elect, predestinated and the Gentile having free will)?

Classical dispensationalism: with a twist. Of course, this isn't ALL that it is...

 

[Jarthur001]

I used to be a "free willer". Scripture was pointed out to me one day, that I just could not argue against. I replied with some nasty comments about God's nature if such were true: it was at this point I realized, despite what I had said to the contrary, that it was my personal feelings which were controlling me, and guiding my theology, not the Spirit of God. After much prayer, and tears, God revealed Himself to me as known through the doctrines of Grace.

We are to be settled in our minds. We are not to be "blown about" with every wind of doctrine. I now feel absolutely ashamed at the "smart" comments I made about God as described by Calvinists: for the Spirit has utterly convinced me it is the One True God.



In hopes that, through the Spirit, others will be convinced of the truths God has shown to me. I am convinced that until we align our beliefs with the Word of God, and understand who He is, the Church will continue it's downward spiral into worldliness.



Because that is God's means. Why, after praying for God to protect your children, do you still tell them to look both ways before they cross the street. Do you not believe God will protect them?

The fact is, there is always a dichotomy in scripture: everything the way God views it, and everything the way it is to us. The fact is, regardless of what view you hold, the people who are going to be saved, has already been decided. Whether it was due to "foreseen faith" or God's sovereign hand, EVERYONE'S eternal destiny has already been set. So the exact same thing goes on the other side: why evangelize?

If you take Jesus' spiritual idea of "a good tree produces good fruit", and apply it to the area of theology, you will be amazed. Calvinistic churches have BY FAR outperformed the other Churches in this area. Overseas missions, evangelism, outreach; historically most of them have come from Churches upholding the five points, at the least.



He called to all: everyone rejected Him, including us. Salvation is by Grace, THOUGH faith, NOT by faith unto Grace.

Good post...

Keep giving God the glory for your salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

The Bible teaches both predestination and human responsibility.

 

[Jarthur001]

The Bible teaches both predestination and human responsibility.

and a Calvinist would not deny this.

However...does the Bible teach..
predestination and free will?

 

[TCGreek]

and a Calvinist would not deny this.

However...does the Bible teach..
predestination and free will?

It all comes down to theological definitions.

 

[Salamander]

It all comes down to theological definitions.

You could not be more wrong. It akll comes down to the harmony of God's word to define things in the correct interpretation to know what the Bible says.

Theologies differ because of man's reasoning abilities failing of the intent of God's reasoning power.

 

[TCGreek]

You could not be more wrong. It akll comes down to the harmony of God's word to define things in the correct interpretation to know what the Bible says.

Theologies differ because of man's reasoning abilities failing of the intent of God's reasoning power.

And that is why we don't all agree even in our efforts, good as they are, to understand the Bible correctly.

 

[Salamander]

And we all would agree more often if everyone took the context and harmony into a more serious consideration.

 

[gb93433]

And that is why we don't all agree even in our efforts, good as they are, to understand the Bible correctly.

The majority of those sitting in the pews on Sunday claim to believe what the preacher preaches not what they have studied. Simply because few have studied and not all that many preachers have actually studied all that much. Most keep teaching what they always heard not what they know from personally studying the Bible.

 

[Steven2006]

"It (scripture) speaks in one place of man's free will as though there were no election. In another place, it speaks of election as though there were no free will. Thus, it teaches us that we must hold fast to both of these truths alongside each other, even when we cannot understand them or make them harmonize. In the light of eternity, the solution of the mystery will be given. He who grasps both in faith will speedily experience how little they are in conflict. He will see that the stronger his faith is in God's everlasting purpose, the more his courage for work will be strengthened. While on the other hand, the more he works and is blessed, the clearer it will become that all is of God." --- Andrew Murray

 

[TCGreek]

And we all would agree more often if everyone took the context and harmony into a more serious consideration.

True, but differences are always going to remain with us until the Eschaton (1 Cor 13:9-12).

 

[TCGreek]

The majority of those sitting in the pews on Sunday claim to believe what the preacher preaches not what they have studied. Simply because few have studied and not all that many preachers have actually studied all that much. Most keep teaching what they always heard not what they know from personally studying the Bible.

Both preachers and congregants have a responsibility to discover biblical truths personally, but that is not always the case.

It's said that some preachers only parrot back what they've heard.

They are depriving themselves of the joy and thrill of self-discovery through the aid of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MB]

and a Calvinist would not deny this.

However...does the Bible teach..
predestination and free will?

Do you call a choice to worship the Lord freewill? If so read on.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
I would say this is definitly proof the Bible teaches freewill and it is a choice to serve other god's or evil or the LORD.

The Bible doesn't teach predestination to Salvation.
ia

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
John Dagg in his Manual of Theology writes [page 322], as follows:

Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.

Anyone of adult mind and reasonable comprehension of their own nature knows this to be true.

Response Posted by MB
This shows the man's ignorance of the scriptures. There isn't one place where man is described as unable to respond. Many listen and try to understand and don't this is true. Yet those who listen long enough will eventually become convinced. It isn't a choice man makes to listen but is a drawing to not ignore it. The story of King Aggrippa proves man can be convinced because even he said he was almost convinced. What stopped his convincing was rebellion. He rejected it. In order for one to be almost convinced one has to understand what is being said. This claim of a disability to understand is not true. There are men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
It is impossible to hold the truth and not understand it because if you don't understand it then you do not hold it.
MB

Your response is pathetic and shows your ignorance of Baptist history. John Dagg was a prominent Baptist pastor during the nineteenth century. He wrote the first book on theology by a Baptist in this country [Manual of Theology]. He was president of Mercer University of Georgia from 1844-1854, having previously served as president of two smaller colleges. I would suggest that before you slander one of the old Saints of God you educate yourself to the extent you are capable.

Your statement:"There isn't one place where man is described as unable to respond." also indicates your ignorance of Scripture.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Romans 3:10-17
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

I repeat my assessment of Dagg's statement: "Anyone of adult mind and reasonable comprehension of their own nature knows this to be true."