I Believe in the Doctrine of Total Depravity,

[Yeshua1]

Free will does not apply to God. "Free will" is the mistaken concept that lost mankind is NOT in bondage to the law of sin and death and has the innate ability to come to God on his own.

God has His Will, which is always done as he determines it.
Like you stated, sinners are restricted by being bound to a sinful nature.

 

[BobRyan]

If you knew every word , every thought you would think for the next 24 hours and could not stray from that not even one inch... would you view yourself as having 'free will'?

I think you would not. Yet that is how God views Himself.

No concept at all of what "free will" actually is.

No wait -- you are Calvinist - that means you have no idea what free will is - by definition. (At least that is the way that Calvinists seem to be playing that game lately)

And of course you did not answer the question in the post you quoted -- proving the conclusion I draw must be true.

 

[TCassidy]

And of course you did not answer the question in the post you quoted -- proving the conclusion I draw must be true.

Can't read either, huh? Have your mommy read the thread to you and explain the big words.

 

[BobRyan]

Free will does not apply to God. " .

Until you think about it. Free will means that the person has the ability to choose one way or the other and that there is nothing to stop them from choosing one way or the other. Specifically no overarching force that dictates their decision

 

[BobRyan]

Can't read either,

Sorry to hear that.

 

[thatbrian]

No, sir. You're looking for someone to try to change your mind. You have no intention of changing your mind, just like I have no intention of changing my mind. Like you said, you're already "convinced."

That being said, I also believe in the total depravity of man.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (KJV)

That God would save a little kid that rode each Sunday on a rusty, old church bus to a Southern Baptist Church in central Illinois, then call him to preach, and give him the honor of serving Him now for four decades, is beyond my ability to understand. We serve a great God!

Bob, you may believe me or not, but the OP is correctly worded. My mind can always be changed on any subject, if and when I am sufficiently convinced that I am wrong.

On some topics that I haven't given too much thought to, that might not take much, but on topics that I have spent much time and study on, it will take much more.

 

[utilyan]

Total Depravity.......Mankind's divine act of PERFECTLY choosing what is wrong better then God can choose what is right.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you may believe me or not, but the OP is correctly worded. My mind can always be changed on any subject, if and when I am sufficiently convinced that I am wrong.

So then you are open to evidence? Objectivity? Free will - rather than predestined to ignore all the evidence posted?

In any case - I don't think this is a good thread to point to the flaw in your position since technically both Arminians and Calvinists accept the doctrine of depravity of the sinful nature.

Where "total depravity" totally fails is in the Bible texts that speak of the wicked 'hardening their heart'. You cannot "harden" something that is already "totally hardened".

So then if the term only means "predisposed to choose evil on at least some point" -- then we all basically agree that this is what the sinful nature does to mankind - and that the Romans 3 description of it is accurate.

 

[BobRyan]

Total Depravity.......Mankind's divine act of PERFECTLY choosing what is wrong better then God can choose what is right.

I don't think either Arminians or Calvinists are arguing that the supernatural drawing of God is insufficient to overcome the disabled "Choice for the Gospel" that depravity would normally disable.

 

[glad4mercy]

So then you are open to evidence? Objectivity? Free will - rather than predestined to ignore all the evidence posted?

In any case - I don't think this is a good thread to point to the flaw in your position since technically both Arminians and Calvinists accept the doctrine of depravity of the sinful nature.

Where "total depravity" totally fails is in the Bible texts that speak of the wicked 'hardening their heart'. You cannot "harden" something that is already "totally hardened".

So then if the term only means "predisposed to choose evil on at least some point" -- then we all basically agree that this is what the sinful nature does to mankind - and that the Romans 3 description of it is accurate.

Yes, and both Classical Arminians and Calvinists agree on human inability apart from Divine Grace. And that this inability is a moral inability /ie enslaving love of sin. There is indeed a need of a radical work of Grace before we can even believe. There is definitely a "heart change" that inclines us to believe where before we had no such real inclination. I do not accept the whole package of Calvinism (I'm still examining parts of it), but I strongly believe in the doctrine of "moral inability"

 

[glad4mercy]

Yes, and both Classical Arminians and Calvinists agree on human inability apart from Divine Grace. And that this inability is a moral inability /ie enslaving love of sin. There is indeed a need of a radical work of Grace before we can even believe. There is definitely a "heart change" that inclines us to believe where before we had no such real inclination. I do not accept the whole package of Calvinism (I'm still examining parts of it), but I strongly believe in the doctrine of "moral inability"

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