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I Believe the Doctrine of Unconditional Election,
- Thread starter thatbrian
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Think that they need to first give how they themselves define the term!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You have free will... you can change your mind. Don't feel bad about it.
The title should have been "arbitrary selection" to be more precise
Sure.
Firstly, this doctrine is founded upon an understanding of total depravity. If one holds to the doctrine of "totally depraved" he must hold to the doctrine of unconditional election because a fallen man does not, can not, and will not come to Christ. The first step in God's saving men is in His electing them unto salvation.
Election is nothing more than choice; therefore, God's unconditional election of men simply means that God makes His choice according to His wisdom and good pleasure, not a condition met by men.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Until "drawn" supernaturally by God - as we see in John 6 and so how "Arminian" to "notice the Bible detail" that John 12:32 says "I will DRAW ALL mankind to me" -- all of it supernatural and of course John 16 where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- supernaturally of course.
"Not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.
"God is NOT partial to any person" Romans 2:11
Instead of "arbitrary selection"
This answer is incoherent. God does no do arbitrary.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Until "drawn" supernaturally by God - as we see in John 6 and so how "Arminian" to "notice the Bible detail" that John 12:32 says "I will DRAW ALL mankind to me" -- all of it supernatural and of course John 16 where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- supernaturally of course.
And his "choice" -
"Not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.
"God is NOT partial to any person" Romans 2:11
Instead of "arbitrary selection"
Then comes the much-expected calvinist response to scripture
You do not understand any of the verses at all. You have been answered scripturally many times but you are not able to welcome the teaching at this time.
We know you believe it. It seems there are about 1000 threads now that deal with it.
1001.
WRONG - there was a condition!
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
the counsel of his own will
I agree, Hank; however, what is meant by, "unconditional" regarding election, is that man does not meet any conditions prior to God's electing him for salvation.
Ok, that's what it means(to you anyway). In that case just about everyone agrees with it. Classical Arminians definitely agree with it.
I think I might possibly agree conditionally
I think I might possibly agree conditionally
That's great. So far, I've made it through the T and the U with no objections. I have a feeling that's about to change when I get to the L, though.
Perhaps you should apply limitations then.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Doesn't unconditional election negate the need for
Romans 10:13-15?
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
What is the point if men are already unconditionally elected?
Also, verse 16 seems to teach that some chose not to obey after they heard:
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
If one's salvation is dependent upon obeying(believing) the gospel, and some clearly chose not to obey (believe), then that does away with unconditional election...
Next...
Romans 10:13-15?
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
What is the point if men are already unconditionally elected?
Also, verse 16 seems to teach that some chose not to obey after they heard:
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
If one's salvation is dependent upon obeying(believing) the gospel, and some clearly chose not to obey (believe), then that does away with unconditional election...
Next...
pray for him ,as the blindness of Ellen White wrong theology still has him bound up!
Except that sinners left in their own natural sin states will always reject Jesus and salvation, and so God Himself will have to decide for them whether to be saved or not!
God uses means. That's been explained to you several times before.
Also, you really should be able to distinguish between election and salvation. They are of course related, but election comes first, obviously.
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