I Cor 13:10

Pastor Bob,

I appreciate your response to my exegesis of 1Cor.13:10, but I must say that there are so many points at which I disagree with you that I scarcely know where to begin to respond. So I will simply try to list some of the disagreements.

1. You correctly assert that 'esoptron' is the Greek word translated as 'mirror' in vs.12, but after that I find little with which I can agree. For example, you go on to assert that "many times in the Word of God this illustration is used", yet I know of only three in Scripture, and you have listed them all. Thus your argument begins with a rather large overstatement of the facts. You then go on to list 2Cor.3:18 as a use of 'esoptron', but 'esoptron' is not used in that passage. Instead Paul uses the related verb 'katoptrizo'.

2. It is true, however, that Paul does use the same concept of looking into a mirror in 2Cor.3:18, but your explanation of its meaning there is questionable, for it is not "our own imperfections" that Paul says we are "beholding as in a mirror". Rather, it is "the glory of the Lord" which we can see "by the Spirit of the Lord", but which the Israelites could not see in Moses because he had a veil over his face(vs.12-13) and which Paul said was still there in the reading of the O.T. by the Jews because it could only be taken away in Christ. So, Paul is saying that we are seeing the glory of the Lord as we are seeing His image being more completely formed in us "from glory to glory". But wouldn't it then also be true that we will not see this glory perfectly until we, in fact, see Christ "face to face"? It is my contention that this is what Paul had already described to them in 1Cor. 13:12. I would even contend that John speaks of the same things when he says, "Beloved, now we are the children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure" (1John3:2-3).

3. As for your citation of the use of 'esoptron' in James 1:23, I am in essential agreement with your understanding of its meaning there. However, I would observe that just because James puts the metaphor to such a use does not mean that Paul does. We have to examine the context of each passage to discover how it is used in each specific instance without prejudging. I think you have read James' use of the metaphor into Paul's writing without adequately dealing with Paul's own line of thought. As a matter of fact, I think you made this same mistake in an earlier post when you assumed Paul's use of 'teleios' in 1Cor.13:10 must be in reference to the written word simply because the English word 'perfect' had been used to translate an O.T. term which referred to the Word of God (and a good translation I might add). But the issue is what Paul meant when he used such terms in a particular context.

4. You argue that " 'when that which is perfect is come' Paul employs the neuter because he does not contemplate an individual. Therefore that which is perfect cannot refer to the coming of Christ Himself". But this is answering an argument I did not make. I clearly expressed the point that 'that which is perfect' refers to a perfect (teleios) way of knowing as opposed to the 'in part' (ek merous) way of knowing we presently experience. I then argued that the time at which this comes about ( the 'when' of vs.10) was when we see Christ face to face (the 'then' of vs.12).

5. In reference to my citation of 1Cor.14:4-5, I must say that I don't follow your point. First you say that "this is not saying that tongues edify the church", but you acknowledge that the person himself is edified, and then you go on to admit that the church is edified when interpretation occurs. So what is your argument? And what about my reference to 12:6f?

I have tried to limit my response to only a few issues so as not to be up typing all night, but I think you will get the overall drift.

Pastork

[ July 20, 2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]

 

Pastor K,
I apologize for the delay in responding; we are gearing up for VBS and Teen-Round-Up all next week. VBS by day and Teen Round-Up by night. Many hours have been dedicated to this great outreach opportunity. I would covet your prayers regarding this.

I am sorry that I mislead you to the conclusion that esoptron was used repeatedly in the Bible. What I said was, the "illustration" is used many times. That is, looking into the Law of God and seeing ourselves for what we are.
James 1:25 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."
Gal. 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Rom. 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law..."

Verse 4. "Edifieth himself." That is, the truths which are communicated to him by the Spirit, and which he utters in an unknown language, may be valuable, and may be the means of strengthening his faith and building him up, but they can be of no use to others.

Verse 5. However important and valuable the truth might be which he uttered in the unknown tongue, it would he useless to the church, unless he should explain it in language which they could understand.

The focus of Paul's remarks here are not, in my opinion, on the gifts themselves but rather on the fact that the Holy Spirit is the source of all gifts. While the gifts are diverse, the source is a common one. The Holy Spirit not only produces these gifts but He distributes them according to His will not according to the wishes or merits of men.

I agree that these gifts, exercised properly will "profit" the whole church in that the individual himself is profited by yielding themself to the Holy Spirit's control.