I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue

It is a matter of semantics music4Him. I can agree with Bro.Bob's post too. He has said nothing new, nothing very profound, nothing that hasn't been said before. It's all there. He has just said it in different words to make it more palatable for you.

For example we too believe in the laying of hands and praying for the sick according to James 5. We too have seen people healed acccordingly. God heals. I have stated this many times. But this is not the gift of healing as described in the Bible. It is not the gift of healing as demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16. It is not the supernatural gift of healing that was given in the first century. Nobody on this board denies that God heals. But we do deny that the gift of healing has ceased. There is a big difference.

Notice what Bro.Bob said about tongues:

Isn't that the truth! But the Charistmatics of today don't speak in real foreign languages. They speak in gibberish, nonsense syllables run together. Why do they have to go to language schools before they go to the mission field? Because the gift of languages (tongues) has ceased. It is not in operation anymore. Tongues are real languages, as Bro.Bob said, and as we have been saying all along. Nobody can verify that what is being passed off today as tongues are real languages, not even professional linguistics. That is because they aren't. They are foolishness--gibberish--a cheap imitation of the real thing. They are not the real gift of tongues that was demonstrated in the first century. "How hear we every man in our own language! Bro.Bob said nothing different than what we have been saying all along. The tongues spoken today is not the "gift of languages" spoken in the New Testament."

Healers we have already considered.
Teachers. There was a gift of teaching. It was a supernatural gift, not just an ability or talent that some have today. Even the unsaved have a special talent to teach. So what is the difference?
The gift of teaching was a supernatural gift. Perahaps it was the gift to teach things of the New Testament that had not been revealed yet. Remember the Book of Corinthians was an early epistle. Maybe the gift of teaching was teaching things that would have been revealed in the Book of Hebrews later on. It was a supernatural gift that has passed out of existence. We don't have it any more. Some have a talent of teaching more than others. And when a person gets saved God enables him to use and develop that talent even more than he did before. But it is not a gift of the Spirit. The Gifts have ceased. They were miraculous in nature. They were for the first century, and as the gifts of the spirit ceased at the end of that century.
DHK

 

You will also notice that in addition to the tongues of today being nothing but gibberish they also sound like the local dialect where they are spoken ie, southern charismatic tongues sound twangy, northern churches sound nasally, Chinese sound chinese etc. etc. True tongues would sound like the LANGUAGE it is supposed to be.

 

(I didn't know that, also the reason I posted someone said something about Baptist not believing in spiritual gifts but can't find it now.)

Bless,

BBob

 

That may be true. But most Charismatics are deluded into actually thinking that they are speaking in an actual language when in reality they are not. They are deceived. The gift of languages is no longer in operation today. If it was it would be a common occurence, and missionaries wouldn't be going to language school. But ironically, the Charismatics don't practice what they say what they believe in. Physician heal thyself!
DHK

 

Bro. Bob, If I had the misconception I appologize because I sure don't want to put words in your mouth that you didn't intend to say. But do believe that the gift of healing is for today and that the Spiritual gifts are still in motion today?
BTW, I am also one who if I learn another language or speak in an unknown tongue I concider both a gift. Because I could do neither without the Lord.

Now DHK said this...

... is this what you were referring to?

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
I have given you evidence. Mounds of it. But like the Christian who asks the atheists: "If I give you irrefutable evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, will you accept it?" The answer still comes: "No I will not believe." You are the same way, just like the atheist. No I will not believe, no matter what evidence I present. I give you the same evidence over and over again. You just reject it, ignore it, perhaps don't even read it.
I have given you Scriptural evidence of how the gift of healing was in operation as per Acts 5:16. You and I both know that this is not in operation today. You try and duck this by saying I have never seen anyone clean out a hospital. You or anyone else has never seen anyone either. The reason is the gift has ceased. If the gift has not ceased where is the evidence. The onus is on you to bring forth the evidence. You are like the person defending evolution. If there was truly a missing link (half man and half ape) there would be plenty of them walking around today. After all there are plenty of apes and plenty of men. Why aren't their plenty of "missing links?" Logic only dictates that there would be. Logic only dictates that there would be evidence of the gift of healing if it were in operation today. No evidence; no gift. The gift has ceased.

Does it bother you that you teach an opinion that you cannot back up by Scripture. I can back up my doctrine. Opinions are simply the vain imaginations of man. That is far worse.
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Quote me. Where did I admit to such a thing. I have said over and over again that the gift of healing has ceased, but God still heals. When will you understand that concept? I have given you Scripture (Heb.2:3,4; 2Cor.12:12; 1Cor.13:8ff; 1Cor.14:21,22). The fact that you reject these Scriptures does not invalidate them one iota. Again I base my doctrine on the Bible, not opinion, not on vain imagination.
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Benny teaches heresy of the worse kind and still believes in the gifts of the Spirit. He denies the deity of Christ and the trinity. Yet in some ways you put yourself in the same camp as he is. I teach doctrine based on the Bible. Because you think that you can justify or rationalize it away like a universalist rationalizes away eternal torment in Hell, then that is your problem and you will someday give account to God for it.
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Again, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You can give an atheist irrefutable evidence of the resurrection but that doesn't mean he will accept it.
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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I have presented this evidence over and over for you. What makes you think that if I present it one more time that you will believe? Will an atheist accept the arguments made for the resurrection of Christ? Will you accept my evidence though I give it? The answer is no, even if I give you evidence. For the sake of argument I will list some of the evidences, but I will only give the references instead of posting them, as you slhould be familiar with them by now.

1. First I believe that all the gifts of the Spirit at the same time. Thus if I can demonstrate that one ceased I have reason to believe that all ceased. I believe this because the gifts of the Spirit were supernatural in nature. They were not just talents or abilities. God still enables the church to operate today by bringing into people equipped with unique talents and abilities. But remember there are people in this world that have very special talents. Billl Gates did not get where he is today if he did not have any talent. Every gift was supernatural in nature. Thus every gift has ceased, and is not in operation today, and there is no evidence that they are.

2. There is no evidence of the gift of healing. Where is there the evidence of a so-called healer that can go through the hospitals and heal all the sick. The Biblical evidence for that is in Acts 5:16.

3. There are no "gifts of miracles" today. This is one who had the "gift to perform, with God's power unique and special miracles at certain times in his ministry. Read of Peter's miracles in Acts 5:12-15, Philip in Samaria in Acts 8, Paul in 2Cor.12:12, Heb. 2:3,4. and in many places in Acts. Signs and wonders were done on a regular basis by the Apostles and their associates. Many of these miracles defied the laws of nature. Peter walked on water. Things like this don't happen today. They healed diseases--organic ones. The lame walked again, instantly. Their limbs grew back at once. Give evidence of this today.

4. Tongues have ceased. This has been gone over in many threads. Many reasons have been given.
a. They were a sign for the Apostles.
b. They were a sign for the Jews.
c. They were real genuine native languages--always.
d. They were never prayer languages.
e. They were always confined to the church.
f. They were not for everyone, and were to be used sparingly.
g. They were a sign of judgement for the Jews; judgement came. The sign is no more.

That should be enough. If any one of these be evidence enough to show that the gift has ceased then all have ceased, for all were supernatural in nature.
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Paul doesn't list them separately. In fact in 1Cor.13:8 he lists prophecy as one of the very gifts that will cease. He also lists knowledge. The meaning there is revelatory kknwledge, not common knowledge, probably referring to those that taught the revelation that they received from God. Even so the list is given in 1Cor:12:28, as well as elsewhere in 1Cor.12.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
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Ye do err not knowing the Scripture, neither the power of God. I refer you to the Scripture posted above.
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These were "gifts of the Spirit," supernatural gifts given for the first century churches when they were in their infancy and the Word of God was not yet completed.
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You are blind to what I said, and obviously confused.
See the other thread as to where it "perfect" is being discussed. I believe it is the thread on "Ananias and Sapphira."
Perfect does not mean sinless or perfection as in our modern-day usage. It means "complete." See any lexicon, or dictionary. It is an old English word. It has the sense of brought to a completion.
Thus when that which is brought to a completion (the Word of God) then that which is in part (the temporary gifts mentioned in verse 8) shall be done away). This is the only viable reading of verse 10.
For we know in part (the Old Testament). And we prophesy in part (temporary gift) --verse 9

Remember that Paul died before Christ came, before the resurrection, and before the Bible was completed. All three scenarios have been presented. The last one only fits the context.

Would Paul have lived long enough to see the completed Word of God he would have been able to see in the entire Bible (New Testament included) and see himself more clearly than he had ever done before, just as James says. But he didn't live that long. As it was he did live long enough to see most of the New Testament written, much of it by his own hand. That revelation in itself was a mirror reflecting Christ, and thus reflecting himself and all his shortcomings in the light of Christ. He was fully known in the light of Christ. In the Old Testament he could only see Christ dimly. And in the Old Testament he could only see himself in the light of Christ dimly.

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I have one question for you? Why do you tell lies and make false accusations?
DHK

 

Yes, music4Him;
I don't only believe it I know it for I have seen healing over the years. I am not silly like some who say "well I haven't seen a arm replaced or the dead raised." I believe what the Bible says, if any be sick that is among you let them call in the Elders for the laying on of hands. Let me give you another example: A man had a growth in his head and after by his request I laid hands on it after 2 days it fell out like sawdust. I don't know what it was but I do believe because it was growing by the day. I live by it and we practice it in all of our churches. If any is sick they request a prayer at the end of services and the "laying on of hands". The "the old timers" and some today would say "brother, would you doctor". He said it so I use it. There are also gifts of teaching, preaching etc. I know we don't have what the Apostles have as DHK says which he is right but we do have the gifts that God continues to give His believers. Does that answer all your questions, if not please ask the rest?

blessings,

BBob

 

Gifts of Today? How can they cease, they have always come from God we are just an instrument but God does the healing and miracles etc. God is the same today, yesterday and forever more. God had a purpose in the days of the Apostles of making their gifts more astounding for it was a time of transition from the Law to Grace but that does not mean gifts are not still here. I don't claim to be able to go to the hospital and heal all the sick. If I could it would be a sign and there shall be no signs given, but I do claim that by me having "faith" and the recepient having faith the gift of healing does and indeed work. You say give proof, well if you were here I would take you to the ones who have been healed. Never, never would I or do I believe it is a big show like Benny Henn and others. I think it is something done in meekness, humbleness and mostly in faith. You know I have had heart surgery 2 times , 2 neck artery surgeries and double hyneria surgery and the last heart surgery I was swollen so bad the family could not recognize me. I was so miserable I ask God to let me die. All I could see was a peaceful place and I couldn't bear to live any longer. I can assure people that all fear leaves a child of God at death for I been there. But God himself chose to heal me so I will forever believe in what He said "if any among you be sick, let them call in the Elders for the laying on of hands". Amen brethren and to the Glory of God,

 

Brother Bob,
I do believe that the gifts have ceased. But I also believe that you are defining them the wrong way. The gifts of the Spirit that the Apostles exercised were supernatural gifts that were only for the first century churches, and validated the apostles and their message. They were primarily a sign for the unbelieving Jews, and thus we have no need for them today.

I too believe in healing, and have seen it in much the same way that you have. Today God heals in answer to prayer, and according to his will. Sometimes he heals and sometimes he doesn't. As the gifts passed out of existence that was true in the Bible as well. Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus. Timothy was often sick. Paul told him to take a little wine for his stomach sake and his oft infirmities. Paul himself had a thorn in the flesh which we believe to be a sickness or an infirmity of somekind, possibly an eye disease. All of these are examples of individuals in the Bible that God, for one reason or another, chose not to heal. It was not His will.
But Peter exercised the "gift of healing" in Acts 5:16 when a great multitde of sick people came from Jerusalem, and from all the cities round about Jerusalem (both saved and unsaved). And they were healed--every one of them. That is an example of the demonstration of the gift of healing which does not take place today. I challenge Link to show me how this gift takes place today, and he gives me the lame rationalization that it is I that base my theology on experience. No, the gift has ceased. God heals today in answer to prayer. We live in a different age (post apostolic). God doesn't work the same way he did during the time that He did when the Apostles were alive, and when the Bible was still incomplete. The quality and kind of miracles performed are not the same. You don't hear of any one walking on water as Peter did. Peter transcended the laws of nature. It was super-natural in the strictest or purest from of the word.
DHK

 

DHK;
I agree, I think when I said they had extra powers because of the time of transition is the same thing you are saying. You can explain it better than I, but that is what I was saying. Of course we don't have those kind of gifts to that extent and it would be foolish for me to try by laying on of hands have someone's soul return to the body. I think we are in total agreement DHK.

 

Excellent points!

 

Here is another text showing clearly the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the church continuing until the 2nd coming.

 

I think we are talking about 2 different things here. I believe in all the gifts you just quoted Bob but I think DHK is talking about raising the dead, giving sight to the blind etc. I don't know anyone who can do that today. They did do it in the transition from Law to Grace but I haven't heard of anyone getting up from the dead.

I certainly believe in the following gifts in the church today. Its the raising of the dead stuff. I don't know about an Apostle though have to study on that one!
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

 

This does not give the evidence that you are seeking. Paul does not say that all of these offices will continue to the resurrection. He says nothing of the sort. He says they were given for the edification of the church, but there is no time limit involved. The apostles have died. They all died in the first century. Their writings via the New Testament continue to edify the church to this day. That is just one example.
DHK

 

You are right Eph 4 places no limit on the timeline for the gifts. But you are wrong to think that Eph 4 makes no mention of specific gifts.

As for the NT authors and the benefits of the gifts given to them helping both the first century NT saints and us today - I agree completely.

But EVEN with that benefit you ALSO have the prophets in Corinth (1Cor 14) that do not provide us with their work today - but were STILL needed in the church even WITH the apostles alive and working among them in the flesh!