Your the one without scripture to support his views. My Bible says the Spirit gives the gift of healing as he wills. My Bible does not say someone has to 'heal them all' to have the gift.
The passages you quote say nothing against gifts of the Spirit unless you add human opinion into the equation. There is no reason to read 'completed canon' into I corinthians 13. There is no logical reason to read the ceasing of the gifts into Hebrews 2 or i Corinthians 12.
1. First I believe that all the gifts of the Spirit at the same time. Thus if I can demonstrate that one ceased I have reason to believe that all ceased.
This is the major flaw, and something I have asked you to back up which you have never done.
Where is the idea that all these gifts will cease found in scripture? I Corinthians 13 only mentions two or three gifts, and says nothing about gifts like healing or miracles ceasing. you don't have any reason FROM SCRIPTURE to think that if one ceased, all have ceased.
Snd there is no reason, actually, to think that any of them have ceased yet.
I believe this because the gifts of the Spirit were supernatural in nature. They were not just talents or abilities. God still enables the church to operate today by bringing into people equipped with unique talents and abilities. But remember there are people in this world that have very special talents. Billl Gates did not get where he is today if he did not have any talent. Every gift was supernatural in nature. Thus every gift has ceased, and is not in operation today, and there is no evidence that they are.
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Show me scripture to back up your idea of what a 'gift' is.
I just got an email from a retired Greek and Latin professor who describes charisma as 'gracious endowment.' Another commentator says 'gracelet'.
2. There is no evidence of the gift of healing. Where is there the evidence of a so-called healer that can go through the hospitals and heal all the sick. The Biblical evidence for that is in Acts 5:16.
You base your beliefs on personal experience here (or lack thereof) and not on scripture. The scripture does not say that a Corinthian church member would 'heal them all' like the apostles did. we are talking about I Corinthians 12 gifts, not the apostles' gifts per se.
3. There are no "gifts of miracles" today. This is one who had the "gift to perform, with God's power unique and special miracles at certain times in his ministry. Read of Peter's miracles in Acts 5:12-15, Philip in Samaria in Acts 8, Paul in 2Cor.12:12, Heb. 2:3,4. and in many places in Acts. Signs and wonders were done on a regular basis by the Apostles and their associates. Many of these miracles defied the laws of nature. Peter walked on water. Things like this don't happen today. They healed diseases--organic ones. The lame walked again, instantly. Their limbs grew back at once. Give evidence of this today.
If you saw evidence of it, would you believe in it? If you saw a believer walk on water, would you attribute it to the devil, even if it were of God?
>>4. Tongues have ceased. This has been gone over in many threads. Many reasons have been given.
a. They were a sign for the Apostles.<<
Doesn't have anything to do with tongues ceasing.
>b. They were a sign for the Jews.
Doesn't mean that tongues would cease. Paul says they are a sign for unbelievers.
>d. They were never prayer languages.<
I Corinthians 14 says that he that speaks in a tongue speaks to God. Verse 28 says for the man who would speak in tongues if there is no interpreter to be silent in the congregation and to speak to himself and to God.
So tongues can be used as prayer, but there is no evidence of a speacial tongue specifically and only for a 'prayer language' in scripture.
e. They were always confined to the church.
In Acts 2, they show up in an evangelistic context.
>g. They were a sign of judgement for the Jews; judgement came. The sign is no more.
You have not proved this from scripture. I have asked extensively for proof from scripture that tongues were just for Jews of that era, or that a coming judgment would mean tongues would end. You have shown no evidence of this-- just your opinion. Jews are still around. Unbelieving Jews are still around.
That should be enough. If any one of these be evidence enough to show that the gift has ceased then all have ceased, for all were supernatural in nature.
First, most of what you list has nothing to do with the issue of tongues ceasing. And none of them argue in the slightest way that all the other gifts would cease.
Look up what the Greek word for 'gift' actually means. It is used to refer to mundane looking things like teaching, giving, etc. Things that still go on in church.
And I would be surprised if you were not in the minority among Baptists for believing all gifts have ceased, at least among Baptist preachers who have thought about the issue. That is a very extreme view.
I wrote
I Corinthians does not mention the gift of teaching. It mentions teachers. Romans mentions the gift of teaching.[/qb]
Ye do err not knowing the Scripture, neither the power of God. I refer you to the Scripture posted above.
[qb]
Thou dost err in various ways. Here are two.
1. Thou used 'ye' to refer to one person.
2. You did not read my quote well enough. I said I Corinthians does not mention the gift of teaching. It mentions teachers.
Quote:
Not only is this not supported by scripture, it defies reason. Please go get a Greek dictionary and look up 'charisma' and 'charis'-- that is 'spiritual gift' and 'grace' so that you can get an idea of what a spiritual gift is. [/qb]
These were "gifts of the Spirit," supernatural gifts given for the first century churches when they were in their infancy and the Word of God was not yet completed.
Some theory. If you are basing it on I Corinthians 13, that passage does not say anything about all these other gifts ever ceasing.
I wrote
[qb]
You never answered my post which showed your argument about 'that which is perfect' in I Corinthians to have no weight.
* You argued from James that the word of God is like a mirror.
* You referred to I Corinthians 13:11. I will quote it below.
"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror' then we shall see face to face. now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (NIV)
This is supposed to prove that 'the perfect' is scripture. Let us look at the verse and make a chart.
Before the Perfect Comes After the Perfect comes
See a reflection as in a mirror See face to face
Know in part Know fully as fully known
If having the Bible is seeing a reflection as in a mirror, notice that this all happens before the perfect comes.
Now we look into the 'perfect law of liberty' as the saints did before the New Testament was completed, and we see ourselves as in a mirror.
The time period when people could 'see in the mirror' started long before the New Testament scriptures were completed. James was written way before Revelation, and this principle applied then.
In the future, a time will come when we see face to face.
Perfect does not mean sinless or perfection as in our modern-day usage. It means "complete." See any lexicon, or dictionary. It is an old English word.
The KJV is Early Modern English, not English. I do not know that 'perfect' meant complete in either Old English (Anglo-Saxon) or Early Modern English. If you have read my posts in the past, you know that I understand that 'perfect' is the translation of a word that roughly means 'complete.' We will reach our complete, mature, final state, in the resurrection or the kingdom taht follows.
John tells us that we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
We will see the Word as He is. If any Man knows fully as He is fully known, it is Christ. And we will be like Him in the end.
Thus when that which is brought to a completion (the Word of God) then that which is in part (the temporary gifts mentioned in verse 8) shall be done away). This is the only viable reading of verse 10.
For we know in part (the Old Testament). And we prophesy in part (temporary gift) --verse 9
And here, you are eisegeting when you read 'word of God' into the text. And you are being very anachronistic when you interpret 'word of God' to be 'completed canon' since the phrase 'word of God' in scripture is used to refer to the message of God, written or spoken, and to the Son of God, through Whom God has revealed Himself.
It makes more sense to intepret the passage based on the context of the epistle. I Cor. 1:7 expresses a desire that the Corinthians come behind in no gift waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. In I Corinthians 13, Paul mentions tongues, prophecy, and the coming of the perfect. The epistle continues to talk about tongues, prophecy, and the resurrection and state of things after it.
In his chapter on the resurrection, Paul gives an illustration about corn, which matches with the 'maturity' concept.
