I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue

I know you don't really believe that Mike but your recent posts indicate that you do. And since they have stated so publicly they should be addressed publicly.

In this quote you have inferred that all the Baptists here not believing in the gifts are not saved.
First you quote 1Cor.2:14 which is a verse directly relating to the unsaved person, the natural man. That is us--the unsaved Baptists, right? That is what it sounds like in the context of your post.
Seconldy you inasmuch say that the gift of the Holy Spirit is evidenced in the nine gifts of the Spirit, implying that those that don't have those gifts are not saved, and do not have the Holy Spirit. That is us Baptists. We are not saved, right? We don't believe in the gifts. We don't have them. Therefore we don't have the Holy Spirit and are not saved, right?
Thirdly, you say "if the manifestations (read gifts) are gone (have ceased) [as we Baptists believe], then it is impossible for us Baptists to understand the Bible. The inference here is that we don't have the Holy Spirit. We are not saved. Right?
Four times you have either directly or indirectly stated that we aren't saved in this one post alone.

And now more recently:

In the light of a discussion of the gifts of the Holy Spirit you quote James 2:19. You compare us Baptists to demons who believe in the existence of God, but not in Christ for salvation. You again infer that because we don't believe in the existence of the gifts that we, like the demons, are not saved. That is the correlation that is made.

Quite frankly I am tired of being called unsaved. It is a false accusation. You know better than that. I know that you can come up with better arguments than that.
DHK

 

Actually my intent was the exact opposite...

The rhetoric was intended to mean that I believe Baptist do have the Spirit (not like wild-eyed Charismatics. ) and that they prove that they do because they do have those non-human intuitive leaps that only the Holy Spirit can give...

I am not sure what you'd call it but, with my background, I call those things The Word of Wisdom and The Word of Knowledge...

I was, obviously ineptly, trying to make the point that all the Gifts can't be gone because even Baptist recieve from the Holy Spirit...

And, I believe that the Holy Spirit is the package and is 'whole'... He is the Gift.

So, in my way of thinking, if the Holy Spirit is the Gift...

Then it is His decision as to how to present Himself in the Church not ours...

In this I agree with you... We should not go seeking 'Manifestations'...

If we are to seek anything it is the Holy Spirit's Presence to help us Walk in the Spirit...

And, trust Him to provide whatever manifestations we need to protect and or encourage us or the church through us...

SMM

 

Thanks Mike,
I knew you believed differently then what was coming across. Sometimes confusion arises because we have different meanings for the same word. For example I consider "word of wisdom" a gift that has alread past, and would never apply to myself as you did to me. Saying the same thing that you said, I would say that the Holy Spirit "illuminates" our mind to the truths of Scripture. Saying the same thng with different vocabularies can become comfusing.
DHK

 

Yes, and we both are very "into" what we believe...

English can be so much, fun?

 

Hi all, someone asked for the scriptures that show that Tongues are a "sign" that faded away after 70ad I made this quick little list.

Core verses about Tongues being a sign which pointed to the 70Ad judgement of Isreal:

1 Cor. 1:22 - tells us Jews require a sign

1 Cor. 13:8 - tells us tongues will fade away on their own.

1 Cor. 14:22 -Quotes Isaiah 28 and calls Tongues a "sign"

1 Cor. 14:23 -Says Tongues are for unbelievers (directly meaning unbelieving Jews because of the previous verse and Isaiah 28.

Isaiah 28 - Tells of a coming judgement and scattering of the nation of Isreal. Says Tongues will be the sign pointing to this. Paul quotes this chapter in regards to the tongues that were going on in the assemblies of his time.

Well, there it is in a nutshell. Look up the verses and the surrounding context to make this make even more sense.

In Christ,
Brian

 

John 20-21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The Disciples received the Holy Ghost before Pentacost. Then when they were of one accord with the other people in the upper room, they received something else.

Acts 1-8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

They were believers, but they received the Holy Ghost in John 20. and they received the Power later. With the evidince of speaking in tongues.

Acts 19 shows that "tongues" is the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Acts-19-3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.


It does not mean you sre not saved if you don't have the infilling. It doesn't make a person better or worse than any other person.

IMOHO, you can be saved and have the Holy Ghost without being baptized in the Holy Ghost.

I know that won't "set well" with some folks, but that's what I see in the bible.

(and it's still in operation today )


Think about it,

Tam

[ May 11, 2006, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: tamborine lady ]

 

Here we go... Round One first rebuttal..

Glove On? Yes!

Brian: 1 Cor. 1:22 - tells us Jews require a sign

SMM: Paul has not even referrenced *any* Manifestations of the Spirit as of yet. How do you connect these opening remarks as an absoluite connection to the thre chapters on Spiritual Gifts?

All skeptics require a sign. But, even if a sign is given most will not believe.

Brian: 1 Cor. 13:8 - tells us tongues will fade away on their own.

SMM: Paul is here contrasting Charity as being far superior to any and all of the Manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

He concludes with "When that which is perfect shall come".

Meaning that until that which is perfect comes these gifts will be needed and will continue.

I view, and I believe that most scholars view, Corinthians 13 as a parenthetical clause about the Supremacy of God's Love expressed in Believers and not as a dcotrinal treatise on Spiritual Manifestations

Brian: 1 Cor. 14:22 -Quotes Isaiah 28 and calls Tongues a "sign"

SMM: vs 21 gives the context as when God is speaking to men of other tongues, then, tongues are a sign for the unbelievers...

vs 26 then introduces the idea of Tongues for edification of the church...

Brian: 1 Cor. 14:23 -Says Tongues are for unbelievers (directly meaning unbelieving Jews because of the previous verse and Isaiah 28.

SMM: No, I disagree, it says that if unlearned or unbelievers come in and all are speaking in tongues they'll think 'we' are mad...

It doesn't say if two or three speak and there is interpretation that we would be considered mad.

again look at vs 26 where Tongues are introduced for edification of the church...

Brian: Isaiah 28 - Tells of a coming judgement and scattering of the nation of Isreal. Says Tongues will be the sign pointing to this. Paul quotes this chapter in regards to the tongues that were going on in the assemblies of his time.

SMM: You must be referring to "Stammering Lips" Which literally means a mockers tongue.

That is the Prophecy isn't talking about the Spiritual Manifestation of Tongues at all.

(Much to the chagrin of many Pentecostals )

But, is talking about the people who God uses to discipline Israel will be mocking them mercilessly...

In short, IMHO, it is your interpretation of the meaning of these scriptures that comes to the conclusions you have...

Not, the actual scriptures...

I believe you are sincerely reading into the text absolutes and/or connections which do not exist.

SMM

 

Link you are reading far too much into a simple statement of fact that Paul writes to the Corinthians. In fact it seems like you are taking a small phrase, half a verse of Scripture and building a theology around it. Unreal!
Paul makes a statement to the Corinthian Church.
He tells them that they come behind in no gift, that is that they have all the spiritual gifts manifested among them.
Notice, if you study the Scriptures, you do not find Paul making such a statement to any other church. The only church that had a manifestation of all the gifts of the spirit was the Corinthian Church--not the church at Ephesus, not the church at Philippi, not the church at Colosse, not any of the other churches. He makes this statement regarding the church at Corinth only. Ironically it happens to be the most carnal of all the churches as well.
It was a simple statement of fact. It has nothing to do with the coming of Christ; nothing to do with the end of the world; nothing to do with the rapture, nor any other eschatological event. He simply said that they came behind in no gift. They had them all. What is so hard to understand about that statement? Why are you trying to build a cultish theology around it? It is a simple statement of fact. He said in contrast to other churches who did not have all the gifts, who "did come behind in all the gifts." They were lacking, in contrast to the church at Corinth. The truth is that the First Epistle to the Corinthians was an early epistle, and shortly thereafter tongues began to pass out of existence. Thus there is no mention of them in other epistles.
DHK

 

Even if the gifts are still to be used today, many are not using them in line with the Word of God.

The unknown tongue, for instance, was not a gift to be used as it is in many Pentecostal/Charismatic churches today...

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. {understandeth: Gr. heareth}

If man, speaking in an unknown tongue, is speaking to God as the scriptures say he is, why is the interpretation that is given always given as a message to man? when the original was spoken to God?


1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Speaking in an unknown tongue is unfruitful when it comes to teaching someone. Because it is supposed to be between man and God.

 

Link, you posted what one Greek professor thought and even he did not rule out what I said and what probably thousands of others, who do speak greek, say that it says. For all I know the professor speaks in Tongues and so would naturally try to take a position that Tongues still exist. I believe what the scripture says and how it fits together. There is no dispute that Paul used 2 different greek verbs with very different meanings when saying when Tongues would end and when Prophecy and Knowledge, as gifts, would end. They end at different times. Tongues fades away on their own and the other 2 when the "perfect" comes.

SMM, you fight pretty hard to make easy to understand verses harder to understand. Paul quotes directly from Isaiah 28, which is about the Jews and then says therefore Tongues are a sign to unbelievers. Isreal was the big "unbelievers" of that time. It is like saying: The Greenbay Packers will fall this year again because they are too old therefore the players are not able to keep up with younger players. That is poorly worded but should make my point. The "players" are the packers because it is connected with the "therefore". Yponger players could then be other teams but "players" has to be Packer players. It is the same with what paul said and "unbelievers" in Pauls staement is unbelieving jews, because it is connected to the previuos statement. There was not verses in the original text and so those verses are really all one thought.

more later, In Christ,
Brian

 

Sorry, in advance for the long post...

SFIC,

I agree!

I think in many cases most Pentecostals and Charismatics don't have clue as to what they've really got...

Nor, the awesome responsibility to excersize the Manifestations 'sanely'.

And, in all fairness...

Pentecostals tend to take the 'Gift' passages to one extreme allowing just about anything goes...

While the cesseasionists take those same passages and make everything go away...

Ouch!

In my own view, having been raised Pentecostal and sought as full an understanding as I could handle...

I am convinced that the Gift is the Holy Spirit...

And, the "Charisma's" are manifestations of His Active presence...

This *should* take the emphasis off the manifestation and place it on the Giver (Jesus) and the Gift (Holy Spirit) and not some out of control emotional basket case.

Of which I was, and to a certain extent still am...

I delivered a sermon to the Calvary Chapel I was attending titled, "Stir Up the Gift"...

Which you may find 'interesting'?

There are Three general areas of functionality in the Holy Spirits Presence

(actually more but, it's early and I am not fully awake yet. )

1. He draws men to Christ... Convinces unbelievers whether Jew or Gentile.
2. Edifies the Church
3. Edifies the Believer

Tongues, being the premier bone of contention it is, can not be properly understood as The Gift of Tongues...

It is a Charisma of the Holy Spirit...

The Holy Spirit is the Gift,

Tongues is a manfestation, a Charisma of the Holy Spirit...

So, in the sense, as the Holy Spirit wills he can use a supernatural impartation of a human language to reach the lost...

Granted this useage is somewhat mitigated by missionary language schools...

But, there are still unreached language groups for whom we have no 'full language' adequate to effectively communicate the Gospel...

Now I don't really care if it's a Baptist with a 'knack' for languages or a Pentecostal speaking in tongues that reaches them as long as they are reached..

Next Tongues as a public exhortation in a meeting. This is, IMHO, what Paul is talking about when he requires an Interpretation...

No interpretation, then the public enunciation is out of order. Unless the speaking is in a language speaking to a lost person who can understand it...

But, trust me, if this happens, it won't be hidden... God's Word won't return void. The person will get saved... (IMHO)

Lastly we can Pray in the Spirit as is spoken of in Romans. This personal edification should not be loud enough to disrupt a service and draw attention to itself.

Now, my own personal conclusion is that my personal prayer language was more a Gift of Knowledge than a Charisma of Tongues...

I say this because after having been 'given' tongues to pray in, I now have knowledge of it and can begin to pray in my prayer language 'naturally' and then transition into more effective prayer with the Spirit bearing witness.

This is different that a public tongues in that public tongues tend to be spontaneous and totally unknown to the speaker. Much more 'auto-pilot'.

But, the Spirit Himself is never disruptive to a service. He doesn't just blurt out in the middle of a pastors sentence...

In every case where I have witnessed 'true' Spirit Birthed tongues there has been a kind of 'pregnant pause'...

When I have prophesied (I don't 'tongues' as a public Charisma) I have always had the sense that I am supposed to speak...

Being shy there have been times I have politely asked the Spirit to find someone else...

And, I have felt a sense of the Spirit going out and looking over the congregation then coming back to me and in effect saying... No, this time I've chosen you... Get ready...

In every case where this extra special extra strong 'sense' has been there, a 'pregnant pause' has occured and when that has happened I've gotten, more or less, a kick in my spiritual tail to get me started.

No preganant pause... No kick in the Spiritual Tail... No outspeaking...

If it's the Spirit that gave it, you won't lose it by waiting for the proper and in order timing.

I've been given things early in the service and then set them aside thinking it was 'just me'

Only to have the kick in the tail at the end of the sermon.

Other times I had a continuing sense of having been given something but no opening to give it...

In which case I have talked to the pastor or elders after service...

I've been a visitor in churches and been given something and have found an elder and shared with them...

There have been a number of times where as I did so, no matter where I was at, the pastor would immediately bore sight me then look at the elder and then yield the floor...

This has even happened in a Baptist church or two!
(Of course they had no idea I was a Pentecostal at heart! )

As a Pentecostal I am frustrated by the failure to try the spirits or judge prophesy...

And, this is one reason I tend to be shy about bearing the manifestations of the Holy Spirit...

I am never sure if what I say will be weighed...

And, it's scary to think that I could get so emotional that I could say or do something that was out of order or disruptive to the fellowship...

It's driven me ever deeper into the Word so I can judge my own walk with the Spirit.

So, I can have confidence that when I say, "Thus saith the Lord", it really is the Lord speaking through me>

And not my own human spirit getting 'uppity'.

SMM

 

Amen SMM!

Tam

 

Thank you Briguy, I have studied this through and are you sure that Isa 28 says all that? I even used the study bible and the notes and all I see is that its talking of the Messiah being the corner stone.

On the passage about the stammering lips...this is what the parallel bible says.

Isa. 28:11
For 3588 with stammering 3934 lips 8193 and another 312 tongue 3956 will he speak 1696 to 413 this 2088 people. 5971


H3934
לעג
lâ‛êg
law-ayg'
From H3932; a buffoon; also a foreigner: - mocker, stammering.

---------------------------------------------
H8193
שׂפת שׂפה
śâphâh śepheth
saw-faw', sef-eth'
(The second form is in dual and plural); Probably from H5595 or H8192 through the idea of termination (compare H5490); the lip (as a natural boundary); by implication language; by analogy a margin (of a vessel, water, cloth, etc.): - band, bank, binding, border, brim, brink, edge, language, lip, prating, ([sea-]) shore, side, speech, talk, [vain] words.

-------------------------------------------------
H312
אחר
'achêr
akh-air'
From H309; properly hinder; generally next, other, etc.: - (an-) other (man), following, next, strange.
-------------------------------------------------
H3956
לשׁנה לשׁן לשׁון
lâshôn lâshôn leshônâh
law-shone', law-shone', lesh-o-naw'
From H3960; the tongue (of man or animals), used literally (as the instrument of licking, eating, or speech), and figuratively (speech, an ingot, a fork of flame, a cove of water): - + babbler, bay, + evil speaker, language, talker, tongue, wedge.
------------------------------------------------
H1696
דּבר
dâbar
daw-bar'
A primitive root; perhaps properly to arrange; but used figuratively (of words) to speak; rarely (in a destructive sense) to subdue: - answer, appoint, bid, command, commune, declare, destroy, give, name, promise, pronounce, rehearse, say, speak, be spokesman, subdue, talk, teach, tell, think, use [entreaties], utter, X well, X work.
_______________________________________________

The one speaking with stamering lips are those who's tables are full of vomit and filthiness (V8) who aparently have no knowledge. I do not see anything about 70 AD there? Is this the one that it says that tongues will cease in 70 AD?

"1 Cor. 14:22 -Quotes Isaiah 28 and calls Tongues a "sign"."

Again I looked at the text and study bible and this is what I found...

The way the Corinthians were speaking in tounges was not helping anyone because believers didn't understand what was being said and unbelievers thought the believers speaking in tounges was crazy. Speaking in tounges was suppost to be a sign to unbelievers (as it was in Acts 2). After speaking in toungues the believers were suppost to exsplaine what was said and give the credit to God.The unsaved upon hearing would be convinced of the spiritual reality and search the faith futher. While this id one way to reach believers. Paul did say,
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

In my everyday life I probley speak more in my everyday english than in tongues. If I go to witness I would probley use clear plain english.
Oh and BTW, yes it does say in the bible that tongues are for a sign to the unbelievers, but it doesn't say it is for a "sign only" for unbelievers, because then what about the other verses about edifing the church and for speaking to God. This is why in 1Cor 12 where Paul said...
1Cor 12:4-7
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


"1 Cor. 13:8 - tells us tongues will fade away on their own."
Yes it does say that they will fade away on their own. But also like I have said before in previous post this is a very pivotal scripture depending on a persons interpretation of this scripture. If a person says it is the written word of God being complete and then thats it. But I say it is not because every thing will have to be complete and not all is complete yet. I guess I have a bigger picture of what complete is? I figure there are alot who aren't complete and won't be complete until the 2nd comming of Jesus Christ.

Back to the scripture...
1Co 13:8-10
1Co 13:8 Charity26 never3763 faileth:1601 but1161 whether1535 there be prophecies,4394 they shall fail;2673 whether1535 there be tongues,1100 they shall cease;3973 whether1535 there be knowledge,1108 it shall vanish away.2673

1Cor 13:9 For1063 we know1097 in1537 part,3313 and2532 we prophesy4395 in1537 part.3313

1Cor 13:10 But1161 when3752 that which is perfect 5046 is come,2064 then5119 that3588 which is in1537 part3313 shall be done away.2673

~*~ Perfect-

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
-------------------------------------------------
~*~ is come-

G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
-------------------------------------------------

I in the past have came to different conclusions of what the perfect could be. Most say it is Jesus... This is what I believe is part of the puzzle. The bible? Not too sure although Jesus is called the Word. But in the Word it says in...
John 3:16 God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son...

Then Jesus said in...
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Matt 6:9-10
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


Like I have said before, 1Cor. 13:10 is a very pivotal scripture. But I would rather seek out all avenues instead of just taking someone elses word for it.

 

1 Cor-13-8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

The scripture says that tongues will cease, not fade away, there is a difference!!

Strongs says:

3973. pauw pauo, pow'-o
Search for 3973 in KJV

a primary verb ("pause"); to stop (transitively or intransitively), i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end:--cease, leave, refrain.

They will "cease" when the Lord comes back!


Have a good day!!

Tam

 

Link the signs were for the entire nation of the Jews not individual Jews. These signs were to be manifested for saved Jews who were unbelieving that Christ was the awaited Messiah (King of the Kingdom). But once this offer was taken away from the nation of Israel as a whole that's when the signs ceased, because the purpose of their manifestation was gone.

In order for signs to be present from the Spirit the nation of Israel (as a whole) and the kingdom of God must be in view.

Neither of these are the case today. The kingdom offer has been taken away from the nation and God's focus is on the one new man in Christ, which does not require a sign.

Signs today are pointless.

Everything that the church needs in given to us in Scripture. We do not need special revelation via tongues, becuase everything that is needed can be found in Scripture.

 

Huh?

I don't understand that statement at all?

Saved yet unbelieving?

To me that "does not compute"...

BTW:
Healing and Miracles could still be useful for edifying the church...

SMM

 

God's power is still displayed, but just not through gifted individuals when it comes to sign gifts. Does God still heal people. Yes. Does God still do miracles. Yes. But it's not through gifted individuals as it was during NT times.

Example when I was in high school there was a junior high girl that had brain cancer and was bsically written off by doctors. There was no telling how many people were praying for her. And she is still living today cancer free. That was a healing by God.

As to the question about saved Jews unbelieving in Christ as the awaited Messiah...most people believe that John the Baptist, Christ, the disciples/apostles and the early followers were preaching the message of salvation by grace through faith.

However that is a man-made church tradition that is not supported by the Bible. The message they were proclaiming was the kingdom of heaven (literally kingdom of the heavens - it's always pulral in Matthew) in the Gospel of Matthew and the kingdom of God in the other gospel accounts.

The kingdom message and the message of salvation by grace through faith are two separate messages.

Does that help?

 

"Believe" in the present tense is synonymous with "faith".

You "believe" in the aorist to be saved. (What must I do to be saved? Believe (aorist; punctiliar) on the Lord Jesus and you will (not may) be saved.)

You live by "faith" ("believe" in the present tense).

Many, many people are saved, but don't go beyond that and live by faith. The Bible is full of people like that.

They will not spend the rest of eternity in the lake of fire, but they will be missing out on the Kingdom.

The message of the Kingdom is what Jesus, John the Baptizer, etc. came preaching. The message of spiritual salvation was old hat to the Jews.

The apostles went to the Gentiles preaching the message of the Kingdom. Did they also preach the message of spiritual salvation? Certainly. An unsaved person cannot receive the message of the Kingdom. (That's one of the things that is central in the parables of Matthew 13. They all involve saved people. They are parables concerning the Kingdom. When you try to apply them to spiritual salvation, you run into all sorts of doctrinal problems.)