Your weak sense of sarcasim is duly noted. if you read all my posts, you will know I ask you to do the same thing. you are only echoing what i asked you to do. try reading Corinthians in context and see if that works.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Balion, John McArthur is not an expert on the gifts of the Spirit. His roots are in the Church of Christ. I know that now he is some other denomination, but he still has the root of not believing in the power of the Holy Spirit.
He simply does not have all the facts about tongues, or any other gift. It is sad that you take someones word for what the scripture says instead of reading the bible and letting the Holy Spirit interpret it for you.
Try that and let me know how it works.
Peace,
Tam
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I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue
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tamborine lady
Active Member
Touchy fellow aren't you? Sorry if I struck a nerve.
You will find that we don't back down easily,(as you've already seen from the others.)
What did Paul mean here?
1st Cor 14-18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
It must have been O.K. to speak in tongues somewhere.
And another question; why does it bother you so much that people still speak in tongues today? If I speak in tongues it has nothing to do with you does it?
Selah,
Tam
Because I recognisze your sarcasim, this means I am touchy? As for your questions, I answered them in my very first post. Pg 6.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Touchy fellow aren't you? Sorry if I struck a nerve.
You will find that we don't back down easily,(as you've already seen from the others.)
What did Paul mean here?
1st Cor 14-18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
It must have been O.K. to speak in tongues somewhere.
And another question; why does it bother you so much that people still speak in tongues today? If I speak in tongues it has nothing to do with you does it?
Selah,
Tam
Well Tam is luckier than I am no one answered my question yet. I am starting to assume they have none.
This is the 3rd time. Where is the scriptures pointing to 70 AD theroy being the end of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor.12)? Or the Bible being that which is perfect (1Cor. 13:10) which would be when tongues cease? The proof is not there to debunk tongues. There might be those who like the church of Corinth are not applying them properly in service, but then I suppose thats why Paul wrote about that because the bible is used for correction and Paul is indeed correcting the church.
This is the 3rd time. Where is the scriptures pointing to 70 AD theroy being the end of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor.12)? Or the Bible being that which is perfect (1Cor. 13:10) which would be when tongues cease? The proof is not there to debunk tongues. There might be those who like the church of Corinth are not applying them properly in service, but then I suppose thats why Paul wrote about that because the bible is used for correction and Paul is indeed correcting the church.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Balion,
To you, the same question I asked Claudia...
Are ALL modern instances of Tongues 'of the devil' or just the gibberish?
Thanks!
SMM
To you, the same question I asked Claudia...
Are ALL modern instances of Tongues 'of the devil' or just the gibberish?
Thanks!
SMM
You do not ask because you sincerely inquire an answer, but rather that you may lay a trap. So I ask you a question, what do we make of the pagan religions today that also speak in tongues (as they always have)? Are they the work of the demonic, the flesh or the Holy Spirit? (who is not the author of confusion, as paul tried to explain already)
I stated exactly what my beliefs are in reference to this already. As a matter of fact, I think I, as well as others who see the truth, have demonstrated such already. To stay in this thread any longer is to run in circles. Simply read the scriptures in context and they are quite plain and simple when read with an unbiased mind.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Trap?
Why?
Are you feeling guilty?
No, I want to know how you percieve me so that I will know if discussion is at all possible with you...
I was giving you an oppurtunity to maintain a semblance of fellowship...
As regards to reading the host of scripture provided by John MacArthur, most of which is out of context and non sequitur, I have already read, reread and made a great deal of study on the matter...
And, have come up with a rather different conclusion than John MacArthur and apparently you...
In point of fact John MacArthur wrote a book denouncing Charismatics titled "Charismatic Chaos" which was challenged by Ian B. Johnson on May 15, 1996 and as of March 6, 2002 no answer to that challenge was recieved.
Those that dislike CCM style Praise and Worship would do well to look him up as he sides with you...
And, he is in 90 percent agreement with the concerns John MacArthur pointed out at that time... (As am I)
Now, if all Modern Day Speaking in Tongues is of the devil then I, and my contemporaries, are being accused of being demon possesed. Or, at least demonically influenced...
The fact that you fear a trap means only one thing... (At least to me)
And, that is, that you fear the ever so slight possibility that there may in fact be a genuine Manifestation of Tongues TODAY, and that to call ALL Tongues of the devil would be Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit...
You would, of course, be correct and I personally wouldn't recommend making so broad a statement when so many of us here with an otherwise sterling testimony and confession of Salvation have stated that we have in fact experienced the genuine...
That we have seen verifiable miracles, today...
You have the right to be a skeptic...
And, to be honest I did balk at asking you the kinds of direct questions I did because I did not want to be the one by which you were brought into offense...
But, in order to discuss this subject we really need to know where we stand...
SMM
Why?
Are you feeling guilty?
No, I want to know how you percieve me so that I will know if discussion is at all possible with you...
I was giving you an oppurtunity to maintain a semblance of fellowship...
As regards to reading the host of scripture provided by John MacArthur, most of which is out of context and non sequitur, I have already read, reread and made a great deal of study on the matter...
And, have come up with a rather different conclusion than John MacArthur and apparently you...
In point of fact John MacArthur wrote a book denouncing Charismatics titled "Charismatic Chaos" which was challenged by Ian B. Johnson on May 15, 1996 and as of March 6, 2002 no answer to that challenge was recieved.
Those that dislike CCM style Praise and Worship would do well to look him up as he sides with you...
And, he is in 90 percent agreement with the concerns John MacArthur pointed out at that time... (As am I)
Now, if all Modern Day Speaking in Tongues is of the devil then I, and my contemporaries, are being accused of being demon possesed. Or, at least demonically influenced...
The fact that you fear a trap means only one thing... (At least to me)
And, that is, that you fear the ever so slight possibility that there may in fact be a genuine Manifestation of Tongues TODAY, and that to call ALL Tongues of the devil would be Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit...
You would, of course, be correct and I personally wouldn't recommend making so broad a statement when so many of us here with an otherwise sterling testimony and confession of Salvation have stated that we have in fact experienced the genuine...
That we have seen verifiable miracles, today...
You have the right to be a skeptic...
And, to be honest I did balk at asking you the kinds of direct questions I did because I did not want to be the one by which you were brought into offense...
But, in order to discuss this subject we really need to know where we stand...
SMM
Hope of Glory
New Member
Mostly, people ignore questions that have been answered time and time again.
Personally, I can look at Scriptures and see that the signs, wonders, and miracles performed through men were present up until a certain point, and then disappeared. Personally, I think it was some time between 59-64 AD, because up until that point, Paul had that power, and afterward, he could not even help his friend. But, no matter when they disappeared, we are told they would disappear, and they disappeared from Scripture.
Now, I grew up being taught that that which was "perfect" was the completion of the canon in 92 AD. However, what is being referred to as "perfect"? (Remember, the word that is translated as "perfect" means mature.) In Acts 28:28, the offer of the Kingdom (this salvation; the salvation of the soul) was taken from the Jews for the third and final time. This was the completion or the maturity (perfect) of the plan of the offer of the Kingdom to the Jews only. (Remember, the signs, wonders, and miracles have always been given with a view of the Jews in relation to the Kingdom, from the OT through the NT.)
This coincides with the time that the signs, wonders, and miracles performed through men disappeared from Scriptures.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Here is another take that I found interesting:
SMM
I apologise for the lack of white space. But, I wanted to be 'faithful' to the original.
SMM
tamborine lady
Active Member
Ballion, here is an answer to your statement about pagens speaking in tongues.
The devil can only imitate what God does. The reason he copies tongues, and the heathen use them, is because it is one of the good gifts that is still in operation today.
Peace,
Tam
You are obviously a foolish man who enjoys putting a spin on matters. Jesus answered the heritics questions with a question as well. So too did the disciples. Were they feeling "guilty"? I think not. You are a fool and are only interested in "fellowship" with people that interpret the gifts as you do, this way you have a reason to believe.
I've no interest in fellowship with you whatsoever, you come across as arrogant and snide to me.
As for your comments about Macarthur, surely you know that many more great believers and theoligists are against what you call tongues. In fact, it is you who are the minority.
The gifts are a simple subject. You dont see people speaking miraculously to others in there own language anymore. Why? because they've ceased. You don't see people raising the dead anymore. You do not see people being healed of AIDS. Now I'm sure someone as fickal as you would say that healing goes on. Well, guess what, if someone had the real gift of healing, it would work every time. 100%. There is simply no proof. when the real gifts were being used, they were very obviously effective and quite a big deal. They were irrefutable. Not exactly whats going on today, huh?
Learn to read in context. I'm done conversing with you.
Yes, the Devil did copy tongues. If you read 1 Corinthians with understanding, you'll see just that.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Ballion, here is an answer to your statement about pagens speaking in tongues.
The devil can only imitate what God does. The reason he copies tongues, and the heathen use them, is because it is one of the good gifts that is still in operation today.
Peace,
Tam
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
I'll try the link when you send one that is the same guy healing over and over. Otherwise, it is Jesus who heals. Not Man with a gift backed by the Lord, but simply Jesus and his will. Jesus can do anything he wills.
Also, try and send a link backed by Science. Anoterwords, with proof.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
I didn't think it would make any difference to you...
But, had to try anyway...
Even if I had a hundred medical records you still wouldn't believe...
And, BTW, Kathryn Kuhlman did keep medical before and after records of those who claimed healing at her services...
Some of these were chronicled in books and she named names...
"I Believe in Miracles"
"Nothing Is Impossible With God"
"God Can Do It Again"
Sorry, you are working from a vacuum of experience.
And, your vacuum of experience is not proof that the existance of something you have no desire to prove the existance of... Doesn't exist.
Acts 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
SMM
But, had to try anyway...
Even if I had a hundred medical records you still wouldn't believe...
And, BTW, Kathryn Kuhlman did keep medical before and after records of those who claimed healing at her services...
Some of these were chronicled in books and she named names...
"I Believe in Miracles"
"Nothing Is Impossible With God"
"God Can Do It Again"
Sorry, you are working from a vacuum of experience.
And, your vacuum of experience is not proof that the existance of something you have no desire to prove the existance of... Doesn't exist.
Acts 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
SMM
Another nice spin. You'd be great in politics.
Listen again to what I ask you here: Is there a man with the gift of healing, such as in the days of Acts? Surely he has healed many people then, has he not? Provide unto me this man. If the gifts exist in the same way for todays purpose, shall this not be easy? Instead you give me a few separate posts by a couple different unknown sites, with a couple different people claiming they were healed. Does the Bible not command us to test?
But regardless, I said to you already, I know that Jesus can heal. But if a man is among us, who truly has the gift of healing, and he is using it properly, for the edification of the church, surely he has a long and incredible list of people he has healed. Can you point theese men out to me? Surely there must be many if the gift is still for today? But you can not provide the evidence, so all you do is spin and insult. Such a tactic is often used by someone who is unsure of himself.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
I did...
Her name was Kathryn Kuhlman...
She is now with Jesus...
But, her foundation has maintained the records and legacy...
Of thousands that were verifiably healed...
SMM
Her name was Kathryn Kuhlman...
She is now with Jesus...
But, her foundation has maintained the records and legacy...
Of thousands that were verifiably healed...
SMM
I did not see this list of thousands with verified proof. YES PROOF. Or are we not to test this ourselves?
Also, please do not ignore this here comment, but tell me, are there not many more? Should there not be many more? Are there not many, even in your own church? Surely if one gift is abundant, so then are the others? Or do you not personally know anyone with this miraculous gift? Surely this gift must be rampant in the church as well?
Balion
I have answered this issue twice in two posts, and you apparently did not read the responses before you asked your question again. Below I will summarize my points to you on this issue.
In I Corinthians 14:27-28, 'tongue' in the singular is obviously the genuine thing. A careful reading of the chapter shows that your argument that 'tongue' without the 's' is fake, and the 'tongues' with the 's' are genuine.
If it is not, then you should be arguing that fake tongues should be allowed in church, because Paul said to allow the 'tongue' singular with intepretation.
'Tongue' means 'language.' 'Tongues' means languages. That is what the words mean, and that makes the most sense in the passage.
Finally, did you get the idea that 'tongues' singular were bad from someone else, or did you just come up with that yourself.
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