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I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue

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Link

New Member
Balion wrote [/qb][/QUOTE] You are a fool and are only interested in "fellowship" with people that interpret the gifts as you do, this way you have a reason to believe. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Man, Balion, don't you think you are being harsh and judgmental. I have seen a number of posts from SMM over the years, and he does not seem to be as you describe at all. His post was not even inflamatory and you accuse him like this?

What do you think of that verse in the sermon on the mount in Matthew where Jesus says that whoever says to his brother 'thou fool' shall be in danger of Hell fire?
 

Balion

New Member
Originally posted by Link:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Balion:
Anyone care to explain the differences yet, beetween Tongue (singular) and Tongues (plural)? Or did paul just accidently mispeak, over and over, on accident?
Balion


In I Corinthians 14:27-28, 'tongue' in the singular is obviously the genuine thing. A careful reading of the chapter shows that your argument that 'tongue' without the 's' is fake, and the 'tongues' with the 's' are genuine.

If it is not, then you should be arguing that fake tongues should be allowed in church, because Paul said to allow the 'tongue' singular with intepretation.

'Tongue' means 'language.' 'Tongues' means languages. That is what the words mean, and that makes the most sense in the passage.

Finally, did you get the idea that 'tongues' singular were bad from someone else, or did you just come up with that yourself.
</font>[/QUOTE]if you are to ask me where I"got my idea" state it properly, as in do others believe as I. The answer is yes and I have provided a very indepth 3 part series in one of my earlier posts. I doubt most will read it, as there mind is already made up. I once believed as you because that is as I was tought. now I understand properly.

As per your comment on fake tongues should be allowed in the church (if they were bad), I believe you and I are obviously interpreting scripture differently. I believe he is telling them it needs to be interpreted for a reason, so they can see what they are actually saying. Paul even says that there are many kinds of languages and that ALL have a purpose. Then he says they are accomplishing nothing. Speaking to air. Again, as always, has to be read in context with unbiased beliefs and a mind open to the holy spirit.
 

Balion

New Member
Originally posted by Link:
Balion wrote
You are a fool and are only interested in "fellowship" with people that interpret the gifts as you do, this way you have a reason to believe. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Man, Balion, don't you think you are being harsh and judgmental. I have seen a number of posts from SMM over the years, and he does not seem to be as you describe at all. His post was not even inflamatory and you accuse him like this?

What do you think of that verse in the sermon on the mount in Matthew where Jesus says that whoever says to his brother 'thou fool' shall be in danger of Hell fire? [/QB][/QUOTE]Odd. I found more than a few things he said with direct sarcasim and insinuations. Not to mention a harsh tone here and there. You are familiar of him for a while so I see why you come to his defense.
As for you "wondering" what I think about any scripture, I think it all the same, that it is God breathed.

And also that it should not be taken out of context. Surely we wont get into applying scripture everytime one dislikes a post, for that can go every which way.

It is my opinion tthat some on here think if they defend their belief vehemently, others will convert or go away.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Trap?

Why?

Are you feeling guilty?

No, I want to know how you percieve me so that I will know if discussion is at all possible with you...

I was giving you an oppurtunity to maintain a semblance of fellowship...


Now, if all Modern Day Speaking in Tongues is of the devil then I, and my contemporaries, are being accused of being demon possesed. Or, at least demonically influenced...


SMM
Dearest Mike,

To be totally upfront with you, you make it nearly impossible for us to have "fellowship" with you when you ask the question whether or not we think modern speaking in tongues is of the devil and when we say YES then you play the martyr act and say we are accusing you of this and that..

You do this OFTEN. You do often to me.. you constantly claim I am "trying to force" you to keep the commandments, etc and so on. When all Im doing is stating my opinions just like everyone else.

So I can understand with no problem why the guy wonders if you are laying a trap.
 

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
I've been up since pretty early so I am not going to try to be cogent right now.


Kathryn's Ministry is the only one I've ever known of who took the time to have people interviewed who were claiming healing in her services.

All the rest seem to take the stance that you don't dare question God's Work.

To which I say... It sure didn't hurt Kathryn's Ministry. What are they afraid of?

SMM
 

Balion

New Member
"I did not see this list of thousands with verified proof. YES PROOF. Or are we not to test this ourselves?

Also, please do not ignore this here comment, but tell me, are there not many more? Should there not be many more? Are there not many, even in your own church? Surely if one gift is abundant, so then are the others? Or do you not personally know anyone with this miraculous gift? Surely this gift must be rampant in the church as well?"


SPIRITUALMADMAN- You did not reply to this. I am interested in your response.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Link:
This verse is strong evidence that Paul believed that the gifts would continue until the Lord returns.


I Corinthian 1:7
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

One should keep this verse in mind, and the fact that Paul talks about the resurrection that would occur at the Lord's return at the end of the epistle when interpreting the meaning of 'that which is perfect' in I Corinthians 13.

There is no evidence that Paul envisioned an age without spiritual gifts between the deaths of the first century apostles and the coming of the Lord. Paul's teaching on spiritual gifts in I Corinthians 12 are therefore still valid.
Well good luck with that.
 

tamborine lady

Active Member
type.gif


Proverbs 16-18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.


Ballion, you are new here and perhaps do not know the rules. But I just want to remind you that it is not good to come off as "I know more than you", and putting the rest of us down who don't agree with you.

No need to get huffy about it.

We're all in this together.

Peace,

Tam
 

music4Him

New Member
QUOTE]Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Originally posted by music4Him:
Well Tam is luckier than I am no one answered my question yet. I am starting to assume they have none.

This is the 3rd time. Where is the scriptures pointing to 70 AD theroy being the end of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor.12)? Or the Bible being that which is perfect (1Cor. 13:10) which would be when tongues cease? The proof is not there to debunk tongues. There might be those who like the church of Corinth are not applying them properly in service, but then I suppose thats why Paul wrote about that because the bible is used for correction and Paul is indeed correcting the church.
Mostly, people ignore questions that have been answered time and time again.

Personally, I can look at Scriptures and see that the signs, wonders, and miracles performed through men were present up until a certain point, and then disappeared. Personally, I think it was some time between 59-64 AD, because up until that point, Paul had that power, and afterward, he could not even help his friend. But, no matter when they disappeared, we are told they would disappear, and they disappeared from Scripture.

Now, I grew up being taught that that which was "perfect" was the completion of the canon in 92 AD. However, what is being referred to as "perfect"? (Remember, the word that is translated as "perfect" means mature.) In Acts 28:28, the offer of the Kingdom (this salvation; the salvation of the soul) was taken from the Jews for the third and final time. This was the completion or the maturity (perfect) of the plan of the offer of the Kingdom to the Jews only. (Remember, the signs, wonders, and miracles have always been given with a view of the Jews in relation to the Kingdom, from the OT through the NT.)

This coincides with the time that the signs, wonders, and miracles performed through men disappeared from Scriptures.
[/QUOTE]

It hasn't been answered. I asked for more scripture proof not just someones opinion. Give me some solid proof out of the Word of God on the gifts of the Spirit ceasing... before the return of the Jesus. I have read all verses and chapters that Briguy gave me on page 3 and there is nothing that holds water on the theroy and I also looked up the Greek and Hebrew text respectively to see where in the world one would even draw a 70 AD theory from it. Its not in those scriptures that I can find. My findings are on page 4 where I have quoted Briguys reply with the scriptures he provided. I would even read a sermon on this theroy if you got one just to understand the reasoning about it.

Sincerely,
Music4Him
 

Balion

New Member
Originally posted by tamborine lady:
type.gif


Proverbs 16-18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.


Ballion, you are new here and perhaps do not know the rules. But I just want to remind you that it is not good to come off as "I know more than you", and putting the rest of us down who don't agree with you.

No need to get huffy about it.

We're all in this together.

Peace,

Tam
Funny how you said no such thing to any other person. Yet to me as I have disagreed with you. I broke no rules and need no "reminder" from you. Thanks for your concern.
 

Link

New Member
Hope of Glory wrote

Personally, I can look at Scriptures and see that the signs, wonders, and miracles performed through men were present up until a certain point, and then disappeared. Personally, I think it was some time between 59-64 AD, because up until that point, Paul had that power, and afterward, he could not even help his friend. But, no matter when they disappeared, we are told they would disappear, and they disappeared from Scripture.
There are some major flaws with your argument.

1. If you graph out the occurance of supernatural gifts that appear in scripture, there is a huge spike toward the end, as the book of Revelation contains visions, angelic appearances, and prophecy.

2. If you were to graph out, like a brain wave chart, all the occurances of the supernatural that occur in NT scripture on a time line, you would see that the occurances go up and down. They don't just go down. Before Acts 4, there was a lull. Then the apostles prayed for God to do signs and wonders, and He did. There was a spike ont he chart. In Ephesus, there is another spike on the chart as God does extraordinary miracles through the hands of Paul. An honest look at scripture does not show gifts declining, but rather highs and lows. Plus, most accounts of miracles are in the Gospels and Acts, because they are spiritual books. Since teacing on spiritual gifts in the book of I Corinthians is 'milk' it makes sense that Paul would not cover that material as much as churches grew up and learned how to use the gifts properly, and we see little mention of this sort of thing or a lot of the problems the Corinthians had in a late epistle like Philippians.

3. You assume the apostles could use their gifts at will, like Superman uses his powers in the comic book. Scripture argues against this. The apostles did miracles, but they had to pray in Acts 4. Apparently, there was a drop in miracles and they were dependant on god for miraculous power, on an on-going basis. Before Peter raised Tabitha, he prayed. In Ephesus, God chose to do special miracles by Paul's hands. Luke notes this. So if Paul left a sick man in Miletus, that does not mean the gifts gradually waned. Paul had some kind of eye illness apparently EARLY ON in his ministry when he went to the Galatians. This was probably first missionary journey, and Paul did many great miracles after that.

4. You are contradicting direct doctrinal teaching of scripture with your time period theory. The Bible teaches that the Spirit gives gifts as He wills. You are saying He doesn't give them because of your time period argument. Your time period argument relies on an argument from silence.
 

Link

New Member
J Jump referred to Arlen L. Chitwood, who wrote,

All of the spiritual sign-gifts would have to be looked upon together -- as a unit, comprised of different parts -- simply because of their interrelated purpose. They all existed for exactly the same purpose. And when the Lord saw fit to bring His purpose surrounding these gifts to a close, they (all of them together, delineated by the three in I Cor. 13:8) would no longer exist.

Actually, they could no longer exist. Any existence of these gifts beyond this time would be contrary to the revealed Word of God and, thus, impossible.
Note that there is no specific scripture that he can cite to back up the idea that this is in violation of the revealed Word of God. No scripture was violated when the gifts continued, as we see in history, beyond the death of the 12 apostles. This man's theory was violated, but no scripture was.

In fact, this article overlooks the fact that the I Corinthians 12 gifts were given for the benefit of the body of Christ. Paul does not even mention these gifts being given for the benefit of Israel. I Corinthians 12 does not say that they are signs for unbelievers. They are to 'profit withall' in the context of the body. In I Corinthians 14, Christians are told to seek spiritual gifts to build up the church. Notice the role of these gifts in building up the CHURCH. These gifts are not just about Israel, as this author wrongly assumes. That idea does not line up with scripture, which shows that these gifts have a role to play in the church.
 

Link

New Member
Balion

You still did not answer my point.

'Tongue' in the singular is used in I Corinthians 14:27.

So which is it.

1. You believe that Paul gave permission to speak in false tongues and interpret them (and should therefore support the use of false tongues today.)
2. You do not believe that every time 'tongue' is used in the singular it refers to false tongues in the passage.
 

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
Originally posted by Balion:
SPIRITUALMADMAN- You did not reply to this. I am interested in your response.
I did, indeed, reply to your post letting you know that I would reply more thoroughly at a later date.

My schedule runs from before 0300 to around 2130 on average and quite frankly I was too dog tired to think clearly...

Badgering the witness will not improve my responses..

In fact in my eyes it indicates an unwillingmess to aloow for adequate research for a proper response...

Ie., you don't really want a proper response...

Therefore, good day sir...

SMM

For those interested in reading further...

This link was sent to me by a fellow believer...

http://www.redwhiteandblue.org/christian/plstexts/CHAOS2.HTM
 

Balion

New Member
Originally posted by Link:
Balion

You still did not answer my point.

'Tongue' in the singular is used in I Corinthians 14:27.

So which is it.

1. You believe that Paul gave permission to speak in false tongues and interpret them (and should therefore support the use of false tongues today.)
2. You do not believe that every time 'tongue' is used in the singular it refers to false tongues in the passage.
Link, scroll up to my second pots on page 9. Yes, i did answer your point. You just need to read what I wrote.
 

Balion

New Member
Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Balion:
SPIRITUALMADMAN- You did not reply to this. I am interested in your response.
I did, indeed, reply to your post letting you know that I would reply more thoroughly at a later date.

My schedule runs from before 0300 to around 2130 on average and quite frankly I was too dog tired to think clearly...

Badgering the witness will not improve my responses..

In fact in my eyes it indicates an unwillingmess to aloow for adequate research for a proper response...

Ie., you don't really want a proper response...

Therefore, good day sir...

SMM

For those interested in reading further...

This link was sent to me by a fellow believer...

http://www.redwhiteandblue.org/christian/plstexts/CHAOS2.HTM
</font>[/QUOTE]I would not want to rush you pal. When you know, then you cn let me know.
 
The tongue issue is getting old.

First, if one reads all the verses in the Bible that speak of the unknown tongue (all in 1 Corinthians 14), one will be able to understand better what the tongue is.

The unknown tongue is only spoken to God, it is not to man(v2). It stands to reason that if the unknown tongue is spoken to God, then the interpretation should be talking to God as well.

Not one person who translates to English from Spanish will listen to the one speaking Spanish and interpret his words to mean something entirely different than what the Spanish speaker said.

We see that the unknown tongue edifies the one speaking the tongue only, not the full body of believers(v4).

We see that one that speaks in an unknown tongue should pray that he can interpret that which he has spoken.

We see when one prays in an unknown tongue, the spirit is what is praying, but the natural mind does not understand what is spoken. This prayer is not to be interpreted.

We see Paul would rather speak 5 words in a known language than a multitude of words in a tongue people do not understand.

We see that when a person talks in an unknown tongue, he is to do it by course. Just a few sentences, and then one is to interpret.

The very last verse of this chapter tells us that everything should be done decently and in order. Many of the 'tongue sessions' in churches around the world are not in order.
 

Link

New Member
Balion,

No, you quoted me, and said some words, but you did not address the point.

1. You argue that 'tongue' in the singular is a fake tongue.

2. Paul says to allow the man to speak in a tongue-- in the singular with an interpretation in v. 27-28.

3. Either you must allow for a fake tongue in church, change your stance on 'tongue'--singular-- being a fake gift, [or say that Paul was wrong to allow them].

Your response was this,
As per your comment on fake tongues should be allowed in the church (if they were bad), I believe you and I are obviously interpreting scripture differently. I believe he is telling them it needs to be interpreted for a reason, so they can see what they are actually saying. Paul even says that there are many kinds of languages and that ALL have a purpose. Then he says they are accomplishing nothing. Speaking to air. Again, as always, has to be read in context with unbiased beliefs and a mind open to the holy spirit.
That did not answer the point I made. Yes, it is obvious we believe differently. Can you explain why your specific belief about 'tongue' does not make sense in the context of verses 27-28. That is the issue.

Are you saying that verse 27 and 28 is giving permission, even commanding, the Corinthians to 'speak into the air'.

Btw, your comments implying that your interpretation is the one made with an open mind and open to the Holy Spirit is the type of thing that draws the 'don't be arrogant' responses from readers. Your interpretation on this particular issue is not consistent with reading an open mind and openness to the Holy Spirit, because your interpretation does not make sense in the context of the passage.

Paul tells them they will be speaking into the air because no one will understand them. If two people speak foreign languages to one another without itnerpretation, then they will be barbarians to one another, as Paul explains.
 
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