I do not permit a woman to teach...

[Deacon]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 (ESV 2016)

Paul supports this proposition by referencing the hierarchy of Adam over Eve (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

In a book, "Those Who Can, Teach". (edited by Stanley E. Porter. 2013) it is noted that a different hierarchy is present in universities and seminaries:

"In colleges and universities the stacking and ranking of persons is obvious and rigid. At the top is the president or chancellor, followed by academic deans. Frequently there are division heads such as the chairman of the humanities. Then come departmental chairmen and three kinds of professors: full professors, associate professors, and assistant professors. Next are instructors, paraprofessionals, secretaries, maintenance personnel, and housekeepers. Students come somewhere near the bottom—a bit above housekeepers".

...the majority of my professors were gracious women and men of faith who treated their students with respect and modeled humility.
Heath, Gordon L. 2013. “The Upside-Down Professor: The Professor in a Christian Institution.” In Those Who Can, Teach: Teaching as Christian Vocation, edited by Stanley E. Porter, 3:195. McMaster Divinity College General Series. Eugene, OR: Pickwick Publications.


Is a woman teaching a man always inappropriate?
Is there a place where Paul would say a woman might appropriately speak and teach?

Rob

 

[JesusFan]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 (ESV 2016)

Paul supports this proposition by referencing the hierarchy of Adam over Eve (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

In a book, "Those Who Can, Teach". (edited by Stanley E. Porter. 2013) it is noted that a different hierarchy is present in universities and seminaries:

"In colleges and universities the stacking and ranking of persons is obvious and rigid. At the top is the president or chancellor, followed by academic deans. Frequently there are division heads such as the chairman of the humanities. Then come departmental chairmen and three kinds of professors: full professors, associate professors, and assistant professors. Next are instructors, paraprofessionals, secretaries, maintenance personnel, and housekeepers. Students come somewhere near the bottom—a bit above housekeepers".

...the majority of my professors were gracious women and men of faith who treated their students with respect and modeled humility.
Heath, Gordon L. 2013. “The Upside-Down Professor: The Professor in a Christian Institution.” In Those Who Can, Teach: Teaching as Christian Vocation, edited by Stanley E. Porter, 3:195. McMaster Divinity College General Series. Eugene, OR: Pickwick Publications.


Is a woman teaching a man always inappropriate?
Is there a place where Paul would say a woman might appropriately speak and teach?

Rob

Is Paul admonishing referring to when in an assembled church session or to all areas men and women meet? Why do some groups allow female missionaries to teach and preach while on the missions field, but not while in local churches when back home?

Do know many churches allow female teachers for women groups, and children's church?

I always took that prohibition to refer to mainly spiritual leadership in a local assembly church setting

 

[timf]

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

A reference is made to a reason for a prohibition against women teaching being that Eve was deceived. This may be taken to mean that there is that in women's nature (perhaps making them suited as help meets) that makes them more vulnerable to deception and thus less suited to offer instruction.

However, if one considers the deceptions permeating what is called the church today, one wonders if there could be any more deception.

 

[Reynolds]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 (ESV 2016)

Paul supports this proposition by referencing the hierarchy of Adam over Eve (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

In a book, "Those Who Can, Teach". (edited by Stanley E. Porter. 2013) it is noted that a different hierarchy is present in universities and seminaries:

"In colleges and universities the stacking and ranking of persons is obvious and rigid. At the top is the president or chancellor, followed by academic deans. Frequently there are division heads such as the chairman of the humanities. Then come departmental chairmen and three kinds of professors: full professors, associate professors, and assistant professors. Next are instructors, paraprofessionals, secretaries, maintenance personnel, and housekeepers. Students come somewhere near the bottom—a bit above housekeepers".

...the majority of my professors were gracious women and men of faith who treated their students with respect and modeled humility.
Heath, Gordon L. 2013. “The Upside-Down Professor: The Professor in a Christian Institution.” In Those Who Can, Teach: Teaching as Christian Vocation, edited by Stanley E. Porter, 3:195. McMaster Divinity College General Series. Eugene, OR: Pickwick Publications.


Is a woman teaching a man always inappropriate?
Is there a place where Paul would say a woman might appropriately speak and teach?

Rob

I take it as an absolute prohibition that applies to any group within the local church that has adult menpreaent. Pastoring, preaching, elder, deacon, S.S. teacher, small group leader, etc.

 

[Deacon]

I take it as an absolute prohibition that applies to any group within the local church that has adult menpreaent. Pastoring, preaching, elder, deacon, S.S. teacher, small group leader, etc.

It sure would be a quite a sin for a man to learn anything in church, from a woman.

Do the men in your church also pray with raised hands? (1 Timothy 2:8)

Rob

 

[Reynolds]

It sure would be a quite a sin for a man to learn anything in church, from a woman.

Do the men in your church also pray with raised hands? (1 Timothy 2:8)

Rob

Paul was plain. Your sarcastic response does not change Paul's plain apostolic command.
Might want to study out the metaphor you referenced.
"lifting up holy hands. Paul is not emphasizing a specific posture necessary for prayer, but a prerequisite for effective prayer (cf. Ps 66:18). Though this posture is described in the OT (1Ki 8:22; Pss 28:2; 63:4; 134:2), so are many others. The Gr. word for “holy” means “unpolluted” or “unstained by evil.” “Hands” symbolize the activities of life; thus “holy hands” represent a holy life. This basis of effective prayer is a righteous life (Jas 5:16). without anger or disputing. “Anger” and righteousness are mutually exclusive (Jas 1:20; cf. Lk 9:52–56). “Disputing” refers to a hesitant reluctance to be committed to prayer."
John Macarthur

 

[Deacon]

Pardon; sarcasm is my second language.
I'm still trying to put together 1 Timothy 2.

Paul's instruction to be 'lifting up holy hands' is a rather 'plain apostolic command' as well. What separates it from the others?
If the instructions are understood as metaphorical, why wouldn't a less than literal understanding apply for the rest of his instructions in the passage?

Were Paul's instructions not to have "broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" also to be considered metaphorical?
How did braided hair, gold earring and even pearls become acceptable accessories in churches today?

~~~
I'm beginning to understand the passage as a bit less than an 'apostolic command' and more about godly wisdom and order;
for we are not under the law; "the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels" (1 Timothy 1:9).

Apparently, some men and women ("certain persons") in the church were teaching false doctrine. Paul mentions that they taught out of "ignorance" and "lack of understanding" (1 Tim 1:3-7). Paul even mentions that before his conversion, even he acted ignorantly.

The instructions for men dealt with controlling "anger and quarreling" that was provoked by "vain discussion" and 'confident teachings without a proper understanding.'
Women were instructed to dress properly and keep silent because:
(1) they were dressing inappropriately
(2) they were largely ignorant or un-taught, and
(3) they were unruly (perhaps provoked by their husbands anger).

So Paul provided wisdom for proper order and decorum among the assembly of believers.
To keep order, there needed to be some sort of hierarchy and a respect for order.

Paul follows up 1 Timothy 2 with instructions of how the church is to be ordered; bishops/overseer's and deacons.

Rob

 

[Reynolds]

Pardon; sarcasm is my second language.
I'm still trying to put together 1 Timothy 2.

Paul's instruction to be 'lifting up holy hands' is a rather 'plain apostolic command' as well. What separates it from the others?
If the instructions are understood as metaphorical, why wouldn't a less than literal understanding apply for the rest of his instructions in the passage?

Were Paul's instructions not to have "broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" also to be considered metaphorical?
How did braided hair, gold earring and even pearls become acceptable accessories in churches today?

~~~
I'm beginning to understand the passage as a bit less than an 'apostolic command' and more about godly wisdom and order;
for we are not under the law; "the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels" (1 Timothy 1:9).

Apparently, some men and women ("certain persons") in the church were teaching false doctrine. Paul mentions that they taught out of "ignorance" and "lack of understanding" (1 Tim 1:3-7). Paul even mentions that before his conversion, even he acted ignorantly.

The instructions for men dealt with controlling "anger and quarreling" that was provoked by "vain discussion" and 'confident teachings without a proper understanding.'
Women were instructed to dress properly and keep silent because:
(1) they were dressing inappropriately
(2) they were largely ignorant or un-taught, and
(3) they were unruly (perhaps provoked by their husbands anger).

So Paul provided wisdom for proper order and decorum among the assembly of believers.
To keep order, there needed to be some sort of hierarchy and a respect for order.

Paul follows up 1 Timothy 2 with instructions of how the church is to be ordered; bishops/overseer's and deacons.

Rob

So, Paul's Epistles were only to a certain people at a certain time. Rip them out of The Bible.
What's your view on women pastors?

 

[Deacon]

So who's being sarcastic now!

To search out wisdom is to follow God.

Rob

 

[Reynolds]

So who's being sarcastic now!

To follow search out wisdom is to follow God.

Rob

I was just speaking your second language.
Women Pastors???

 

[Deacon]

Women Pastors???

Yeah, I'm not there yet brother.

Rob

 

[Reynolds]

Yeah, I'm not there yet brother.

Rob

Seriously, not sarcastically, why not? What's the difference? You cant learn from a woman pastor? If Paul's Epistles were cultural, his command for men pastors must have been cultural as well.

 

[Deacon]

Seriously, not sarcastically, why not? What's the difference? You cant learn from a woman pastor? If Paul's Epistles were cultural, his command for men pastors must have been cultural as well.

A topic for another day... perhaps soon, when I work through 1 Timothy 3.

Rob

 

[JonC]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 (ESV 2016)

Paul supports this proposition by referencing the hierarchy of Adam over Eve (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

In a book, "Those Who Can, Teach". (edited by Stanley E. Porter. 2013) it is noted that a different hierarchy is present in universities and seminaries:

"In colleges and universities the stacking and ranking of persons is obvious and rigid. At the top is the president or chancellor, followed by academic deans. Frequently there are division heads such as the chairman of the humanities. Then come departmental chairmen and three kinds of professors: full professors, associate professors, and assistant professors. Next are instructors, paraprofessionals, secretaries, maintenance personnel, and housekeepers. Students come somewhere near the bottom—a bit above housekeepers".

...the majority of my professors were gracious women and men of faith who treated their students with respect and modeled humility.
Heath, Gordon L. 2013. “The Upside-Down Professor: The Professor in a Christian Institution.” In Those Who Can, Teach: Teaching as Christian Vocation, edited by Stanley E. Porter, 3:195. McMaster Divinity College General Series. Eugene, OR: Pickwick Publications.


Is a woman teaching a man always inappropriate?
Is there a place where Paul would say a woman might appropriately speak and teach?

Rob

I believe the context is in the order of roles within a congregation, and that within the 1st century understanding of a religious teacher holding a position of authority.

One point that may be relevant is that Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos (Acts 18:26), so I can't see that Paul is speaking of a blanket prohibition of a woman teaching a man. This makes me conclude Paul is speaking of "teacher" as a role of religious authority (like a Rabbi). Women may have this gift but it is exercised over other women and children.

My opinion.

 

[Reynolds]

I believe the context is in the order of roles within a congregation, and that within the 1st century understanding of a religious teacher holding a position of authority.

One point that may be relevant is that Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos (Acts 18:26), so I can't see that Paul is speaking of a blanket prohibition of a woman teaching a man. This makes me conclude Paul is speaking of "teacher" as a role of religious authority (like a Rabbi). Women may have this gift but it is exercised over other women and children.

My opinion.

Priscilla and Aquilla, from all contextual clues, taught a man in private. The teaching was not an assembled group of any kind. A Sunday School class would be an assembled group.
If you look at 1 Tim passage closely, Paul does not allow a woman to teach a man or have authority over him. It was not, teach and exercise authority. It was do not teach. Do not exercise authority. Two separate commands. Both actions prohibited.

 

[JonC]

Priscilla and Aquilla, from all contextual clues, taught a man in private. The teaching was not an assembled group of any kind. A Sunday School class would be an assembled group.
If you look at 1 Tim passage closely, Paul does not allow a woman to teach a man or have authority over him. It was not, teach and exercise authority. It was do not teach. Do not exercise authority. Two separate commands. Both actions prohibited.

Yes. They pulled Apolos aside. That is what I mean about context.

In a religious community teachers are in a position of authority in a sense, and their responsibility means that they are at a higher accountability (James 3:1 tells us, “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.” ).

The context, as you point out with your 1 Tim passage) is not generally saying a woman can never teach or instruct a man. Paul is talking about roles within a congregation.

Scripture uplifts Deborah as a judge of Israel (the fourth, and only female judge). But this was a different role than a "teacher of Israel). Phoebe was a "deacon", but this service is not what many churches have created as deacons.

 

[Deacon]

Paul's wisdom is sound,

but does his counsel apply to...
(1) a congregational problem,
(2) an ancient societal problem, or
(3) is he declaring a decree to churches of all eras.

The church I attend has congregational singing accompanied by men and women who play a variety of instruments.
The group is lead by a talented woman. It is rare to have someone so talented and so eagerly willing to devote the time and energy to organize the group each week.

She leads the congregation under the authority of the pastor. This is proper order.

Paul states: ... it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. (1 Corinthians 14:35b)

The application of his counsel concerned an ancient societal problem.

The same could be said about head coverings.
Paul asks, "Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered?" (1 Corinthians 11:13)
Most would judge that it is not improper to pray with one's head uncovered.

I think that most modern congregations treat such passages as general wisdom (not law); Paul's instructions deal with problems occurring in ancient society.

Modern society has changed. There's a disconnect from Paul's counsel [black bold] and how he applies his counsel [red bold].

... likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 1 Timothy 2:9–10 (ESV 2016)

1 Corinthians 14:33b–35a (ESV 2016)
... As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. ...

1 Timothy 2:8–12 (ESV 2016)
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Rob

 

[Reynolds]

Paul's wisdom is sound,

but does his counsel apply to...
(1) a congregational problem,
(2) an ancient societal problem, or
(3) is he declaring a decree to churches of all eras.

The church I attend has congregational singing accompanied by men and women who play a variety of instruments.
The group is lead by a talented woman. It is rare to have someone so talented and so eagerly willing to devote the time and energy to organize the group each week.

She leads the congregation under the authority of the pastor. This is proper order.

Paul states: ... it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. (1 Corinthians 14:35b)

The application of his counsel concerned an ancient societal problem.

The same could be said about head coverings.
Paul asks, "Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered?" (1 Corinthians 11:13)
Most would judge that it is not improper to pray with one's head uncovered.

I think that most modern congregations treat such passages as general wisdom (not law); Paul's instructions deal with problems occurring in ancient society.

Modern society has changed. There's a disconnect from Paul's counsel [black bold] and how he applies his counsel [red bold].

... likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 1 Timothy 2:9–10 (ESV 2016)

1 Corinthians 14:33b–35a (ESV 2016)
... As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. ...

1 Timothy 2:8–12 (ESV 2016)
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Rob

So why do you take Paul's requirements for pastor to be male to still apply today?

 

[Deacon]

So why do you take Paul's requirements for pastor to be male to still apply today?

I don’t believe I’ve addressed that topic yet.

Rob

 

[Judith]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 (ESV 2016)

Paul supports this proposition by referencing the hierarchy of Adam over Eve (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

In a book, "Those Who Can, Teach". (edited by Stanley E. Porter. 2013) it is noted that a different hierarchy is present in universities and seminaries:

"In colleges and universities the stacking and ranking of persons is obvious and rigid. At the top is the president or chancellor, followed by academic deans. Frequently there are division heads such as the chairman of the humanities. Then come departmental chairmen and three kinds of professors: full professors, associate professors, and assistant professors. Next are instructors, paraprofessionals, secretaries, maintenance personnel, and housekeepers. Students come somewhere near the bottom—a bit above housekeepers".

...the majority of my professors were gracious women and men of faith who treated their students with respect and modeled humility.
Heath, Gordon L. 2013. “The Upside-Down Professor: The Professor in a Christian Institution.” In Those Who Can, Teach: Teaching as Christian Vocation, edited by Stanley E. Porter, 3:195. McMaster Divinity College General Series. Eugene, OR: Pickwick Publications.


Is a woman teaching a man always inappropriate?
Is there a place where Paul would say a woman might appropriately speak and teach?

Rob

The command is for any office within the church because of authority. A woman can teach anyone male or female outside the office of authority of the church.