I do not permit a woman to teach...

[JesusFan]

Pardon; sarcasm is my second language.
I'm still trying to put together 1 Timothy 2.

Paul's instruction to be 'lifting up holy hands' is a rather 'plain apostolic command' as well. What separates it from the others?
If the instructions are understood as metaphorical, why wouldn't a less than literal understanding apply for the rest of his instructions in the passage?

Were Paul's instructions not to have "broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" also to be considered metaphorical?
How did braided hair, gold earring and even pearls become acceptable accessories in churches today?

~~~
I'm beginning to understand the passage as a bit less than an 'apostolic command' and more about godly wisdom and order;
for we are not under the law; "the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels" (1 Timothy 1:9).

Apparently, some men and women ("certain persons") in the church were teaching false doctrine. Paul mentions that they taught out of "ignorance" and "lack of understanding" (1 Tim 1:3-7). Paul even mentions that before his conversion, even he acted ignorantly.

The instructions for men dealt with controlling "anger and quarreling" that was provoked by "vain discussion" and 'confident teachings without a proper understanding.'
Women were instructed to dress properly and keep silent because:
(1) they were dressing inappropriately
(2) they were largely ignorant or un-taught, and
(3) they were unruly (perhaps provoked by their husbands anger).

So Paul provided wisdom for proper order and decorum among the assembly of believers.
To keep order, there needed to be some sort of hierarchy and a respect for order.

Paul follows up 1 Timothy 2 with instructions of how the church is to be ordered; bishops/overseer's and deacons.

Rob

Do you think women are permitted to be either pastors or elders in local assemblies?

 

[Judith]

NO! Women are not permitted to hold ANY office of authority where men are involved. They can teach women
Titus 2:
1But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: 2That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

If a woman is holding one of the positions mentioned in the OP she is a rebellious woman.

 

[Reynolds]

Do you think women are permitted to be either pastors or elders in local assemblies?

No

 

[Reynolds]

Do you think women are permitted to be either pastors or elders in local assemblies?

No

 

[Reynolds]

Do you think women are permitted to be either pastors or elders in local assemblies?

No

 

[JesusFan]

NO! Women are not permitted to hold ANY office of authority where men are involved. They can teach women
Titus 2:
1But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: 2That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

If a woman is holding one of the positions mentioned in the OP she is a rebellious woman.

can they teach other women and/or children's, or teach both men and women if teaching "non spiritual" matters such as going over financial investing or counseling?

 

[JesusFan]

No

What about then there are female missionaries teaching say school to mission fields, or else female professors teaching in seminary setting say Greek or theology?

 

[Reynolds]

What about then there are female missionaries teaching say school to mission fields, or else female professors teaching in seminary setting say Greek or theology?

The admonition is in the church.

 

[Reynolds]

The command is for any office within the church because of authority. A woman can teach anyone male or female outside the office of authority of the church.

I

The command is for any office within the church because of authority. A woman can teach anyone male or female outside the office of authority of the church.

I Tim 2 does not say the teaching has to be a position of authority.

 

[Reynolds]

The command is for any office within the church because of authority. A woman can teach anyone male or female outside the office of authority of the church.

I

The command is for any office within the church because of authority. A woman can teach anyone male or female outside the office of authority of the church.

I Tim 2 does not say the teaching has to be a position of authority.

 

[Reynolds]

The command is for any office within the church because of authority. A woman can teach anyone male or female outside the office of authority of the church.

I

The command is for any office within the church because of authority. A woman can teach anyone male or female outside the office of authority of the church.

I Tim 2 does not say the teaching has to be a position of authority.

 

[JesusFan]

The admonition is in the church.

In the local assembly, as in local church?

 

[Judith]

can they teach other women and/or children's, or teach both men and women if teaching "non spiritual" matters such as going over financial investing or counseling?

The limiting command for women is for not holding an office of teaching men within the church. Teaching is a position of authority. Outside of the church they can teach anyone anything that is not ordained for the church.

 

[Judith]

I

I Tim 2 does not say the teaching has to be a position of authority.

Teaching is always an authority whether in church or a secular position. They are telling you what to believe or do. Whether a listener accepts that authority is up to them. A position of authority in the church does not mean a place of force. It means that the position has been ordained by God. Reject that position as a place of authority and one rejects God.

 

[Reynolds]

In the local assembly, as in local church?

Yes

 

[Scarlett O.]

Teaching is always an authority whether in church or a secular position. They are telling you what to believe or do. Whether a listener accepts that authority is up to them. A position of authority in the church does not mean a place of force. It means that the position has been ordained by God. Reject that position as a place of authority and one rejects God.

There was a local community center back in 2018 that was looking for a Bible teacher to teach through the Bible.

I volunteered as I have been teaching Sunday School to pre-school children through senior adult women for 40 years.

It was not a church. I told the attendees - women, children, and men - that this was not a church and that if they attended a church that they could not abandon that church and if they did not have a church, I encouraged them to find one. A young married couple who DID attend a local church were saved. A man who did attend a local church began working very hard in his church and started taking his wife and children to church and they ordained him as a deacon.

We started with Genesis and by the time that COVID hit and hit hard in our area, we had gotten to Isaiah.

This was a secular position. But you say that's the same as teaching in the church. I disagree.

 

[Deacon]

William Webb defined four positions on the role of women within the church:

1) Hard/strong patriarchy—unilateral submission of women with an extensive power differential;
2) Soft patriarchy—unilateral submission of women with a moderate power differential;
3) Evangelical egalitarianism—mutual submission with equality of power between male and female; and
4) Secular egalitarianism—equal rights and no gender-defined roles.
Webb, William. Slaves, Women, and Homosexuality: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2001). pp. 26-28.

Stepping away from this divisional paradigm, here is a position similar to what we see in some Baptist churches today.

“For Paul, the head is also the source of unity, but only as the head acts in a manner that is very unheadlike, by not exerting power or privileges but rather doing the opposite.
This is the crucial element of the “reversal.” The point is that it is the head, not any other member of the body, that is acting in this way. The husband, like Christ, accomplishes his purpose by acting in a paradoxical kingdom way. Yet he must first be the head in order for his actions to be effective. Thus he leads and provides, but not as the one with privileges associated with the honored position, as would traditionally be the case. As with Christ, the head/husband sacrifices rather than expecting sacrifice from the other. As the head, he fulfills his duty through the application of kingdom values rather than exercising his worldly rights.”
Lee-Barnewall, Michelle. Neither Complementarian nor Egalitarian. 2016. Baker Academic. Grand Rapids, MI. p. 162.

 

[Reynolds]

There was a local community center back in 2018 that was looking for a Bible teacher to teach through the Bible.

I volunteered as I have been teaching Sunday School to pre-school children through senior adult women for 40 years.

It was not a church. I told the attendees - women, children, and men - that this was not a church and that if they attended a church that they could not abandon that church and if they did not have a church, I encouraged them to find one. A young married couple who DID attend a local church were saved. A man who did attend a local church began working very hard in his church and started taking his wife and children to church and they ordained him as a deacon.

We started with Genesis and by the time that COVID hit and hit hard in our area, we had gotten to Isaiah.

This was a secular position. But you say that's the same as teaching in the church. I disagree.

I agree with you Scarlett.

 

[Reynolds]

The command is for any office within the church because of authority. A woman can teach anyone male or female outside the office of authority of the church.

Agreed. One of my best friends is a Pentecostal woman pastor. She knows my beliefs about her preaching, but we still learn a lot from each other outside church.

 

[Deacon]

Agreed. One of my best friends is a Pentecostal woman pastor. She knows my beliefs about her preaching, but we still learn a lot from each other outside church.

> A Pentecostal I can understand but can a married man really have a woman as a best friend?

>> My parent's church had a fully female pastoral staff. I thought it odd when visiting but I still added notes to my Bible from the sermons.

Rob