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I don't see how anyone could be post-trib.
- Thread starter LadyEagle
- Start date
Pete Richert
New Member
I would say that everytime I read through the NT, I find passages that seem to be pre trib and passages that seem to be post trib and I can't make up my mind. I grew up Pretrib and that is what my father in law teaches (and you better be sure if you want to disagree with him) so I choose it by default but a man I trust more then any other in Biblical interpretation (Scott Hafemann) doesn't believe in a secret rapture so I am continually trying to sort it out. Of course, you could be like Brother Glen and just go the amill way and save yourself a lot of headache.
Hee-hee, Ken. Figured you were hoping I'd bring this topic up, right?Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
All four of the major eschatological interpretations(historic premill, amill, postmill, dispensational premill) have their strengths and weaknesses, and none have a corner on the truth.
None of us will know how the world ends until...well, until it ends.
Ken
I don't think the rapture will be secret, though. The delusion will be that UFOs took us away.
JMO.Ever listening for that sweet trumpet sound!
Bible-belted
New Member
Amen Tom!Originally posted by TomVols:
I've thought the same thing....about pre-tribbers
Yes, the Bible doesn't teach either way clear-cut. My interpretation of certain passages leans towards one view and other passages lean towards the other.
Yet I've learned to realize that I'm not always right. The Bible tells us all it wants to know...it's our faulty human minds combined with sinful nature that is to blame
Here's a hint...I've learned in my life that even if I have a clear conscience and am striving to serve God, I still might be wrong on some things! A lot of Christians don't realize that though...they assume that because of their closeness to God, they have everything right and everyone else is wrong. I urge you not to fall in that trap, as I and others have done.
Yet I've learned to realize that I'm not always right. The Bible tells us all it wants to know...it's our faulty human minds combined with sinful nature that is to blame
Here's a hint...I've learned in my life that even if I have a clear conscience and am striving to serve God, I still might be wrong on some things! A lot of Christians don't realize that though...they assume that because of their closeness to God, they have everything right and everyone else is wrong. I urge you not to fall in that trap, as I and others have done.
I am pre-trib but I think there is far more danger in being dogmatic about any of these views than there is in believing one of them.
The Pharisees certainly studied and knew the prophecies but totally misunderstood what their Messiah was to be like and rejected Him.
The Pharisees certainly studied and knew the prophecies but totally misunderstood what their Messiah was to be like and rejected Him.
Daniel David
New Member
Sheeagle, do you not understand it or you just don't agree with it?
Out like the church BEFORE antichrist is on the scene.
Out like the church BEFORE antichrist is on the scene.
Hi Ken.Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
All four of the major eschatological interpretations(historic premill, amill, postmill, dispensational premill) have their strengths and weaknesses, and none have a corner on the truth.
None of us will know how the world ends until...well, until it ends.
Ken
I have a question about your post.
What are the differences between Historic Pre-mill and Dispensational Pre-mill? I really didn't know there were two schools of thought in the pre-mill camp.
Thanks!
Daniel David
New Member
Romone16, there is no difference from the historic premill position and dispensational premill. Dispensationalism has always been the churches position.
As far as terminology goes, alot of posttribbers try to add some merit to their position by calling it "historic".
The fact is that the early church was premillenial. They do not mention the timing of the rapture. They did believe in imminence though (that would indicate a pretrib position).
As far as terminology goes, alot of posttribbers try to add some merit to their position by calling it "historic".
The fact is that the early church was premillenial. They do not mention the timing of the rapture. They did believe in imminence though (that would indicate a pretrib position).
This response is quite misleading. The basic difference between dispensation premill and historic premill is that dispensational is "pretrib" and historic is "posttrib". Both are premill, believing Christ returns before the "1000 years" of Rev 20.
The church has not always been predominantly premill, but has always been posttrib except for certain groups and denominations over the last ~180 years. The early church was indeed premillennial, but the writings from the period clearly indicate they were clearly posttrib, expecting the church to undergo severe persecution from the antichrist and waiting for the visible return of Christ at the end of it all.
Pete Richert
New Member
I second BrianT. Historic Premill means posttribulation return of Christ. I'm not saying that was the "historic" position of the Church, but that if you ask someone today who identifies themselves as historic premilleniel they mean post trib.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Both historic premill and dispensational premill look for a material kingdom ruled by Christ on this physical earth. As has been mentioned by others, historic premill is posttrib as far as when Christ comes for His people.
Also, historic premill sees the Jews in the future being saved as part of the church's growth, not as a separate salvation group as dispensational premill does.
As an organized teaching, historic premill goes way back in church history, whereas dispensational premill only goes back to the 1830's.
Also, it is somewhat difficult to get a handle on early church eschatology as it is nowhere near an organized body of thought like we have today. They looked forward to the return of Christ and pretty much left it at that, as you can see in the creeds and confessions of the church until the past 200 years or so.
Ken
Also, historic premill sees the Jews in the future being saved as part of the church's growth, not as a separate salvation group as dispensational premill does.
As an organized teaching, historic premill goes way back in church history, whereas dispensational premill only goes back to the 1830's.
Also, it is somewhat difficult to get a handle on early church eschatology as it is nowhere near an organized body of thought like we have today. They looked forward to the return of Christ and pretty much left it at that, as you can see in the creeds and confessions of the church until the past 200 years or so.
Ken
KenH
Well-Known Member
Perhaps someone will find this information useful.
I have typed up these recaps of Revelation and Millennial interpretations from the Holman New Testament Commentary Series on the book of Revelation written by Kendell H. Easley, Professor of New Testament at Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis, Tennessee, pp.4-7.
Four Schools of Interpretation:
The Preterist School: Everything in the book has already been fulfilled.
The Historical School: The predictions cover the entire period between John’s day and the return of Christ.
The Futurist School: The predictions are all in the future.
The Symbolic School: The events are symbolic of the ongoing conflict between God and evil; neither historical nor future events are specifically portrayed.
Millennial Views:
Amillennialism
This evil age includes ongoing persecution for Christians, becoming more intense before Christ’s return (the Tribulation). The souls of believers go to heaven at death and reign with Christ in heaven (the Millennium) as they wait with him for the Second Coming. (Others see the present church age including the spiritual condition of believers in this world as the Millennium. Still others see the new heavens and new earth as the Millennium.) When he returns gloriously and bodily to earth, Christians still living on earth will be raptured; those already dead will be resurrected. Next will be the last judgment, all people will go to either heaven or hell. The eternal state will then go on forever.
Strengths:
Held to by nearly all Christians form the 400s to the 1500s and by many today;
Simplest view;
Unites the Testaments, with Old Testament Israel and Christians seen as one group.
Weaknesses:
Rejects chronological and literal nature of the Millennium;
May appear to reject the notion of Christ’s imminent return;
Can be emotionally and psychologically difficult to believe that Christians will go through any final period of tribulation.
Postmillennialism
Tribulation equals terrible events of Jewish war of A.D. 66-70;
Gospel and Christian missions will become so powerful that most of human society will be brought voluntarily into Christ’s kingdom;
Earth will have long golden age of peace (the Millennium);
After Millennium Christ will return visibly to earth, welcomed by all;
Last judgment will mean all people go to either heaven or hell;
Eternal state will go on forever.
Strengths:
Held by many – even most – North American Bible-believing Christians during the 1800s;
Has most optimistic view of the success of Christian missions;
Emotionally and psychologically very powerful and comforting.
Weakness:
World Wars I and II caused most Christians to abandon idea that the world is getting better and most of the world’s people will become Christians, but recent rapid spread of Christianity in many parts of the Third World has brought a significant resurgence of postmillennialism.
Historic Premillennialism
This evil age will get worse and worse, ending with a final terrible persecution of Christians by “Antichrist” (tribulation);
Many Christians will become martyrs;
Christ will come to pour out God’s wrath and to bring victory for Christians; He will judge the Antichrist and establish a golden age in which Christians will be priests and kings on the earth for a thousand years (Millennium);
One last terrible war will precede the last judgment (though some historic premillennialists do not believe in a literal interpretation of Armageddon);
God will establish a new heaven and a new earth;
Eternal state will go on forever.
Strengths:
Held to strongly during the first four Christian centuries and by many today;
Takes Revelation 20 (and the entire book) literally;
Sees final culmination of Christ’s kingdom as fulfilled by Christians.
Weaknesses:
A complicated view, not clearly presented in a single passage of Scripture;
Not able to explain why a thousand years of peace will result in a last war against Christ.
Dispensational Premillennialism
Divides history into either seven or three dispensations with different revelation from God and different responsibilities of humanity;
Before this age reaches its most wicked point, Christians (or most Christians) will be removed from earth by the Rapture;
During seven-year Great Tribulation, God will deal primarily with the Israelite nation;
Antichrist will persecute the Jewish people, but many will turn to Christ; God’s wrath will be poured out, and raptured Christians will return with Christ to the earth;
Christ will reestablish Israel as a glorified righteous nation and rule the world as the King of Israel, literally fulfilling Old Testament prophecies;
One last terrible war precedes the last judgment;
A new heaven and a new earth will introduce the eternal state forever.
Strengths:
Extremely popular in the United States since World War I;
Most literal approach to the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies about Israel;
Most attractive view emotionally and psychologically.
Weaknesses:
By far most complicated view of prophecy;
Not able to explain why a thousand years of peace will result in a last war against Christ;
Most recent of the views (unknown before J.N. Darby in the early 1800s).
[ September 13, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Four Schools of Interpretation:
The Preterist School: Everything in the book has already been fulfilled.
The Historical School: The predictions cover the entire period between John’s day and the return of Christ.
The Futurist School: The predictions are all in the future.
The Symbolic School: The events are symbolic of the ongoing conflict between God and evil; neither historical nor future events are specifically portrayed.
Millennial Views:
Amillennialism
This evil age includes ongoing persecution for Christians, becoming more intense before Christ’s return (the Tribulation). The souls of believers go to heaven at death and reign with Christ in heaven (the Millennium) as they wait with him for the Second Coming. (Others see the present church age including the spiritual condition of believers in this world as the Millennium. Still others see the new heavens and new earth as the Millennium.) When he returns gloriously and bodily to earth, Christians still living on earth will be raptured; those already dead will be resurrected. Next will be the last judgment, all people will go to either heaven or hell. The eternal state will then go on forever.
Strengths:
Held to by nearly all Christians form the 400s to the 1500s and by many today;
Simplest view;
Unites the Testaments, with Old Testament Israel and Christians seen as one group.
Weaknesses:
Rejects chronological and literal nature of the Millennium;
May appear to reject the notion of Christ’s imminent return;
Can be emotionally and psychologically difficult to believe that Christians will go through any final period of tribulation.
Postmillennialism
Tribulation equals terrible events of Jewish war of A.D. 66-70;
Gospel and Christian missions will become so powerful that most of human society will be brought voluntarily into Christ’s kingdom;
Earth will have long golden age of peace (the Millennium);
After Millennium Christ will return visibly to earth, welcomed by all;
Last judgment will mean all people go to either heaven or hell;
Eternal state will go on forever.
Strengths:
Held by many – even most – North American Bible-believing Christians during the 1800s;
Has most optimistic view of the success of Christian missions;
Emotionally and psychologically very powerful and comforting.
Weakness:
World Wars I and II caused most Christians to abandon idea that the world is getting better and most of the world’s people will become Christians, but recent rapid spread of Christianity in many parts of the Third World has brought a significant resurgence of postmillennialism.
Historic Premillennialism
This evil age will get worse and worse, ending with a final terrible persecution of Christians by “Antichrist” (tribulation);
Many Christians will become martyrs;
Christ will come to pour out God’s wrath and to bring victory for Christians; He will judge the Antichrist and establish a golden age in which Christians will be priests and kings on the earth for a thousand years (Millennium);
One last terrible war will precede the last judgment (though some historic premillennialists do not believe in a literal interpretation of Armageddon);
God will establish a new heaven and a new earth;
Eternal state will go on forever.
Strengths:
Held to strongly during the first four Christian centuries and by many today;
Takes Revelation 20 (and the entire book) literally;
Sees final culmination of Christ’s kingdom as fulfilled by Christians.
Weaknesses:
A complicated view, not clearly presented in a single passage of Scripture;
Not able to explain why a thousand years of peace will result in a last war against Christ.
Dispensational Premillennialism
Divides history into either seven or three dispensations with different revelation from God and different responsibilities of humanity;
Before this age reaches its most wicked point, Christians (or most Christians) will be removed from earth by the Rapture;
During seven-year Great Tribulation, God will deal primarily with the Israelite nation;
Antichrist will persecute the Jewish people, but many will turn to Christ; God’s wrath will be poured out, and raptured Christians will return with Christ to the earth;
Christ will reestablish Israel as a glorified righteous nation and rule the world as the King of Israel, literally fulfilling Old Testament prophecies;
One last terrible war precedes the last judgment;
A new heaven and a new earth will introduce the eternal state forever.
Strengths:
Extremely popular in the United States since World War I;
Most literal approach to the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies about Israel;
Most attractive view emotionally and psychologically.
Weaknesses:
By far most complicated view of prophecy;
Not able to explain why a thousand years of peace will result in a last war against Christ;
Most recent of the views (unknown before J.N. Darby in the early 1800s).
[ September 13, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
C.S. Murphy
New Member
Thanks Ken I appreciate the refresher course, I wish i could rememeber all that but I do well to remember the one that I like best, but right now I can't remember which one.
Murph
Murph