I fear

[OldRegular]

Amy

Sorry, But, not a single one of those verses you posted shows that faith precedes regeneration.


.

Faith does not precede regeneration/the new birth. Regeneration/the new birth is a sovereign act of GOD the Holy Spirit in which HE makes spiritually alive those dead in trespasses and sins; [Ephesians 2:1-8] and only those who were chosen unto salvation before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-7]. The gift of saving faith, by which the person is able to respond to the Gospel Call, follows regeneration.

 

[kyredneck]

......what you espouse is complete heresy and by that I mean it in its strongest form.

Your post and this attack on me is a showcase display of the sort of extreme bigotry that discourages many from sharing their thoughts into God's word here on the BB; and by that, I mean bigotry as ugly as it gets.

This is completely absurd. In fact there are no words to accurately describe it. It shows a complete incompetence in scripture and a deeply seated ignorance.

There's nothing absurd about it. But unlike you, I have words to describe your malicious objection. It shows a shallow hasty approach towards God's word on your part, and a complete disdain for anyone who has placed any serious personal meditation or contemplation into God's word if it happens to be contrary to your beliefs.

Salvation is not a process and no scripture indicates anything of the sort.

In the post referenced, and that you're misrepresenting, I made the statement: “Gospel Salvation is indeed a continuing process, not a one time event...”. I also described it as “an ongoing experience, not a one time event”, and again, I described salvation as a “ personal experience between one and God”. All these descriptions I provided are referring to the timely, practical aspects of our salvation and has nothing to do with our eternal standing with God which He has fixed for us. The roots of this differentiation between the effectual (internal) call and the gospel (external) call , i.e. eternal salvation and gospel salvation, were espoused even by the OLD Southern Baptists, to which you supposedly belong.:

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj40/article2.html

I reiterate: THE TIMELY ASPECTS OF OUR SALVATION IS AN ONGOING, CONTINUING AFFAIR, NOT A ONE TIME EVENT. THE EFFECTUAL CALL ON THE OTHER HAND IS INDEED A ONE TIME EVENT.

Your personal interpretation leads to a life time of earning salvation.

That is the grossest of misrepresentations. In no way am I implying that salvation is earned.

QUESTION FOR YOU REVMITCHELL:

If our salvation in this time world is not an ongoing, continuing process, why the warnings in these passages?:

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

Are you implying that we're not capable of making shipwreck of our faith? If so, that is heresy in it's strongest form.

 

[OldRegular]

All of it. :laugh:

Then you should be able to show a few!

 

[Amy.G]

Then you should be able to show a few!

Already have.

 

[Theopolis]

Faith does not precede regeneration/the new birth. Regeneration/the new birth is a sovereign act of GOD the Holy Spirit in which HE makes spiritually alive those dead in trespasses and sins; [Ephesians 2:1-8] and only those who were chosen unto salvation before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-7]. The gift of saving faith, by which the person is able to respond to the Gospel Call, follows regeneration.

If you re-read my posts carefully you would learn that I don't disagree with that.

 

[olegig]

If a person believes that they just all of a sudden recognized that they are part of the redeemed without repenting of their sins and accepting the free gift of salvation from God, I seriously doubt that they are saved at all!

Almost no Calvinist (though there are some, and they're wrong) will suggest that salvation can occur without actual, personal, response to God in repentance and faith.
Every Calvinist that I know preaches the need to respond to God in repentance and faith.
Many Calvinists preach that message every day and every time they preach. I heard Mark Dever preach the necessity of personal repentance and faith at the Together for the Gospel conference in 2008--and that was in a convention center full of Christians and Calvinists!

I am amazed, well not amazed, perhaps perplexed at the continual teaching from both camps (as shown in the above) of the legalistic instruction that repentance must proceed faith.

Paul teaches believe plus nothing.....(Rom 1:16; 3:22; 3:26; etc.....)
Does one teach the lost that they must clean themselves up before being accepted by God???
NO! for God through Jesus Christ brings on the cleaning, causes the change (repentance), and forgives sins after one believes.

IMO any theology that teaches repentance before belief and faith is a works based theology.

 

[Theopolis]

I am amazed, well not amazed, perhaps perplexed at the continual teaching from both camps (as shown in the above) of the legalistic instruction that repentance must proceed faith.

Paul teaches believe plus nothing.....(Rom 1:16; 3:22; 3:26; etc.....)
Does one teach the lost that they must clean themselves up before being accepted by God???
NO! for God through Jesus Christ brings on the cleaning, causes the change (repentance), and forgives sins after one believes.

IMO any theology that teaches repentance before belief and faith is a works based theology.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[Robert Snow]

This is completely absurd. In fact there are no words to accurately describe it. It shows a complete incompetence in scripture and a deeply seated ignorance.

Salvation is not a process and no scripture indicates anything of the sort. But our salvation is a future event that has been secured by Christ( 1 Peter 1 :3-5). Your personal interpretation leads to a life time of earning salvation. Our redemption has been secure so in that we are saved. But our redemption has not been realized as we wait for Christs return ( Romans 8:18-25).

In fact what you espouse is complete heresy and by that I mean it in its strongest form.

I couldn't agree more!

That is why in the thread "I Fear" I stated that, in my opinion, hyper-Calvinism does not preach the Gospel at all. It is heresy!

When I did this the Primitive Baptist came out of the woodwork with attacks, but none of them proved my point wrong.

I person must repent of their sin and accept the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary or they are not saved, period!

 

[olegig]

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Tell me, do you consider yourself a good Jew (doing all he had been told up to that point) who needed the message taught while Jesus was in the flesh before the finished work of the cross, or do you consider yourself a person on earth 2,000 yrs later that should pay close attention to the last revelations of the Lord Jesus Christ through Paul?

2 Corinthians 5:16 (King James Version)

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

And now, in the interest of saving time, let us go ahead and address another proof text used by those who teach repentance before faith:

Acts 2:37-38 (King James Version)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Sure in vs 38 Peter tells them to repent; but let us not overlook their statement in vs 37.
The audience of Peter believed his message and ask what shall we do!
And what was the message of Peter but that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.

 

[Theopolis]

Tell me, do you consider yourself a good Jew .

I am not a Jew.

Nevertheless, is there one way of salvation for the Jew, and a different way of salvation for non-Jews? Does God have two different plans of salvation?

 

[olegig]

I am not a Jew.

Nevertheless, is there one way of salvation for the Jew, and a different way of salvation for non-Jews? Does God have two different plans of salvation?

I think I was pretty plain in my statement of the distinction between the Jew on earth when Jesus was in the flesh and folks on earth today in spite of the part you chose to use in your reply.

If you would like to phrase your question in full consideration of my statement; then I would venture a reply.

 

[OldRegular]

If you re-read my posts carefully you would learn that I don't disagree with that.

I know you don't. I was simply using your post as a means to jump in since I had not posted on this thread in several days. Sorry, did not mean to question your beliefs.

 

[olegig]

Many Calvinists preach that message every day and every time they preach. I heard Mark Dever preach the necessity of personal repentance and faith at the Together for the Gospel conference in 2008--and that was in a convention center full of Christians and Calvinists!
The Archangel

I call attention to the last few words in the above.

In your opinion, what is the difference between Christians and Calvinist?
You must see a difference since you kept them separate.

 

[saturneptune]

I fear that many five point Calvinists (the ones who are hyper-Calvinists) are heretics (not all, but some) who have fooled themselves into thinking they belong to Christ.

If a person believes that they just all of a sudden recognized that they are part of the redeemed without repenting of their sins and accepting the free gift of salvation from God, I seriously doubt that they are saved at all!

Now, I'm not talking about a born again Christian who is saved and then stumbles into the doctrinal error of Calvinism. Nor am I talking about the person who is either raised in or is attending a reformed church who truly sees their need for salvation and repents and accepts Christ.

I do not fear anything except the Lord, as in Proverbs 1:7.

 

[Jerome]

You could teach Paul a thing or two:thumbs:

2 Cor. 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[The Archangel]

I call attention to the last few words in the above.

In your opinion, what is the difference between Christians and Calvinist?
You must see a difference since you kept them separate.

No, I don't see a difference. In the context of the original post I was showing that Mark Dever (Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC and presenter at Together for the Gospel) preached the gospel in a setting that was supposed to be full of Christians (it is a conference for Christian ministers) and Christian Calvinists (many Calvinists flock to the conference).

I was intending to point out that Mark preached and presented the Gospel even to a group of supposed Christians. This presupposes that there may be some who are not actually Christians, though they think they are. This also supposes there may be some who are there who have no interest in Christianity altogether, who may be there for media purposes or whatever.

Mark presents the Gospel in every Sunday message he preaches. I've even heard him present the Gospel to a chapel service at Southern Seminary. I've known Seminary/Bible College students who became Christians in Seminary/Bible College.

I present the Gospel in the same way to my church every single Sunday. I never assume that everyone will be a Christian. I never assume that every member of our church--who, as far as we can tell are Christians--are actually Christians. I hope they are, but they may be good actors. So, the Gospel is preached every Sunday--in hopes that the Holy Spirit will do His work in the heart of the unsaved. (The Gospel is also for believers, but that is another conversation).

I hope that helps clarify.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[olegig]

No, I don't see a difference.

I present the Gospel in the same way to my church every single Sunday.
I hope that helps clarify.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Thank you, and yes, that did help clarify and blessings to you too.

One question,,,,,
If I was setting in your congregation when you present the Gospel message, what would I hear?

 

[The Archangel]

Thank you, and yes, that did help clarify and blessings to you too.

One question,,,,,
If I was setting in your congregation when you present the Gospel message, what would I hear?

Here it is in a nutshell:

1. God is absolutely holy and demands absolute perfection. He is our creator and judge.

2. Man is a sinner and all sin is ultimately against God. Man sins because it is his nature to do so. God is offended by the sins we commit, but God is also offended by who we are--sinners. Our sin puts us against God and for our sin we deserve an ugly and painful death.

3. Jesus' death was a substitute payment for the penalty we deserve. His death is the only way to appease God's just and righteous anger against us and our sin. Without Jesus death, there would be no substitute and we'd all die in our sins and spend eternity separated from God, ourselves paying the sin-debt we owe.

4. Call to respond in Repentance and Faith--We are called to turn from ourselves (sin) and respond to God in faith, trusting in the blood of Christ as the payment for our sins.

There is some variation weekly. But, this, overall, is it. Usually I mention something about Jesus' perfect life being substituted for our terribly imperfect life (even after our salvation). I usually mention "Imputation" where our sins are put on Christ's account and His perfection is put on ours. I may mention something like: We trust that the just wrath of God we deserved was poured out on Christ while our sin was upon Him so that when God looks at us, He sees our sins as already having been paid by Christ.

Hope that helps!

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[olegig]

4. Call to respond in Repentance and Faith--We are called to turn from ourselves (sin) and respond to God in faith, trusting in the blood of Christ as the payment for our sins.

Hope that helps!

Blessings,

The Archangel

Yes, that helps, thank you.
You seem to have repentance before faith with no mention of belief. I am assuming you are using belief and faith interchangeably.
Might I ask what denomination, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian?

 

[The Archangel]

Yes, that helps, thank you.
You seem to have repentance before faith with no mention of belief. I am assuming you are using belief and faith interchangeably.
Might I ask what denomination, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian?

Baptist, Southern Baptist Convention.

Repentance and faith could easily have been stated "faith and repentance." I use faith, but I see no problem with using "believe." I do say people need to actively believe.

Blessings,

The Archangel