I Got (No) Rhythm

[Salamander]

Regardless of what someone wrote in a diary in 1932 (and I'd honestly be looking for the use of the word "orgasmic" and her meaning because it very well might not be a s3xual term), I can safely say I have never been driven to s3xual passion by listening to rock music. Ever.

[personal attack, calling a poster a liar, snipped] btw, I have read "Rollling Stone" magazine where the guitarist and such made very lude comments about what they wanted their listeners to "picture" of them while playing. I will NOT express the details, it is perverted in the grossest idea of the word.

However last night when I was so stressed that I was ready to cry and I was driving too agressively, I turned on my Passion CD, started listening to a worship song and within minutes, my mind's focus was changed from my anger, frustration and selfishness to worship and praise of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Honestly, is THAT bad??

I'm not falling for your attempt to cause some one to judge you, maybe I could judge your motive as genuine.

Explain a cacthphrase I hear used lately concerning Southern Gospel calling much of it "jukey"?

 

[Aaron]

Love the internet- here's some info on music in Ancient Israel:

http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/poet/music.htm

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/wilson/ant304/projects/projects98/campbellp/campbellp.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/religion/arc/music/index.html (this website is hard to read because of the background but it is interesting)

Also from:http://www.kolel.org/blog/2009/02/parashat-beshalach-exodus-1317-1716.html

Women in the biblical world apparently were expert percussionists. Because ancient Semitic music was more rhythmic than tonal or melodic, hand-drum skills would have made women essential for most musical performances. The victory song genre itself was exclusively female because of the performance context — that is, in the wake of a military victory. In a world with men as the primary combatants the women who remain behind typically are the ones to greet triumphant soldiers returning from battle. It is no wonder that the composition and performance of celebratory hymns became a women’s genre in ancient Israel.

Note: OT expertise does not equal musical expertise.
(As I'm limited in time, please allow a revision of a previous post of mine . . .)

Deciphering ancient music requires a high degree of musical expertise and a vast historical and archaeological knowledge, and those who have studied it—notably Abraham Zvi Idelsohn, who is relied upon heavily in the Zondervan Encyclopedia article on music in the Bible, and Alfred Edersheim—are agreed, ancient Hebrew music was not heavily rhythmic.

A cursory Internet search will also bear this out.

• "The melodies used in the Temple liturgy appear to have been both tetrachordal (based on a scale series of four notes) and modal. The liturgical texts were chanted by the priests, and an orchestra of professional musicians accompanied the priests with ornamented versions of the chanted melodies. Congregational singing was also antiphonal: The priests or a trained choral ensemble chanted one part, and the congregation chanted the other. Rhythm usually followed the accents of the syllables of the words." http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?vendorId=FWNE.fw..je019800.a#FWNE.fw..je019800.a
• "In the development of the subject he (the cantor) is bound to no definite form, rhythm, manner, or point of detail, but may treat it quite freely according to his personal capacity, inclination, and sentiment, so long only as the conclusion of the passage and the short doxology closing it, if it ends in a benediction, are chanted to the snatch of melody forming the coda, usually distinctly fixed and so furnishing the modal motive." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_music

And many, many more...

• Josephus, who was virtually "there" described the principal instruments of the Jews. "The viol was an instrument of ten strings, it was played upon with a bow; the psaltery had twelve musical notes, and was played upon by the fingers; [NOT like a hammered dulcimer] the cymbals were were broad and large instruments, and were made of brass."
• (Lest you assume these cymbals were played upon like cymbals in a modern drumset) Alfred Edersheim states in The Temple: Its Ministry and Services, "The Rabbis enumerate thirty-six different instruments, of which only fifteen are mentioned in the bible, and of these five in the Pentateuch. As in early Jewish poetry there was neither definite and continued metre (in the modern sense), [heavily rhythmic?] nor regular and premeditated rhyme, so there was neither musical notation, nor yet any artificial harmony. The melody was simple, sweet, and sung in unison to the accompaniment of instrumental music. Only one pair of brass cymbals were allowed to be used. But this 'sounding brass' and 'tinkling cymbal' formed no part of the Temple music itself, and served only as the signal to begin that part of the service." Hmmm, percussion without rhythm...
• 1 Chronicles 25:1 "David...set apart some of the sons of Asaph...for the ministry of prophesying [in the Temple], accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals."

And there you have it; a microcosm of the scholarly work on ancient Hebrew music.

One more thing to note is that Eastern music is nothing like what was heard commonly in that region during the time of the Jews or the Early Church. The destruction of the Temple, and the obliteration of Judaism in that region followed by the rise of Isalm changed the face of that region forever. Nothing we hear there today can be assumed to be even remotely related to the practice in the Temple and synagogues in the days of Christ.

 

[Don]

Note: OT expertise does not equal musical expertise.
(As I'm limited in time, please allow a revision of a previous post of mine . . .)

Deciphering ancient music requires a high degree of musical expertise and a vast historical and archaeological knowledge, and those who have studied it—notably Abraham Zvi Idelsohn, who is relied upon heavily in the Zondervan Encyclopedia article on music in the Bible, and Alfred Edersheim—are agreed, ancient Hebrew music was not heavily rhythmic.

A cursory Internet search will also bear this out.

• "The melodies used in the Temple liturgy appear to have been both tetrachordal (based on a scale series of four notes) and modal. The liturgical texts were chanted by the priests, and an orchestra of professional musicians accompanied the priests with ornamented versions of the chanted melodies. Congregational singing was also antiphonal: The priests or a trained choral ensemble chanted one part, and the congregation chanted the other. Rhythm usually followed the accents of the syllables of the words." http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?vendorId=FWNE.fw..je019800.a#FWNE.fw..je019800.a
• "In the development of the subject he (the cantor) is bound to no definite form, rhythm, manner, or point of detail, but may treat it quite freely according to his personal capacity, inclination, and sentiment, so long only as the conclusion of the passage and the short doxology closing it, if it ends in a benediction, are chanted to the snatch of melody forming the coda, usually distinctly fixed and so furnishing the modal motive." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_music

And many, many more...

• Josephus, who was virtually "there" described the principal instruments of the Jews. "The viol was an instrument of ten strings, it was played upon with a bow; the psaltery had twelve musical notes, and was played upon by the fingers; [NOT like a hammered dulcimer] the cymbals were were broad and large instruments, and were made of brass."
• (Lest you assume these cymbals were played upon like cymbals in a modern drumset) Alfred Edersheim states in The Temple: Its Ministry and Services, "The Rabbis enumerate thirty-six different instruments, of which only fifteen are mentioned in the bible, and of these five in the Pentateuch. As in early Jewish poetry there was neither definite and continued metre (in the modern sense), [heavily rhythmic?] nor regular and premeditated rhyme, so there was neither musical notation, nor yet any artificial harmony. The melody was simple, sweet, and sung in unison to the accompaniment of instrumental music. Only one pair of brass cymbals were allowed to be used. But this 'sounding brass' and 'tinkling cymbal' formed no part of the Temple music itself, and served only as the signal to begin that part of the service." Hmmm, percussion without rhythm...
• 1 Chronicles 25:1 "David...set apart some of the sons of Asaph...for the ministry of prophesying [in the Temple], accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals."

And there you have it; a microcosm of the scholarly work on ancient Hebrew music.

One more thing to note is that Eastern music is nothing like what was heard commonly in that region during the time of the Jews or the Early Church. The destruction of the Temple, and the obliteration of Judaism in that region followed by the rise of Isalm changed the face of that region forever. Nothing we hear there today can be assumed to be even remotely related to the practice in the Temple and synagogues in the days of Christ.

You keep throwing out this "heavily rhythmic" thing; what exactly is "heavily rhythmic"?

 

[Mexdeaf]

You keep throwing out this "heavily rhythmic" thing; what exactly is "heavily rhythmic"?

It is opposed to "lightly rhythmic". As opposed to "no rhythm at all."

You can deny it all you want but Hebrew music had rhythm.

 

[rickh]

Of course your modern ideals will NOT accept the following, and you will pervert what I say:

The above quote is a "refutation" of the "preferences" of some, but when we see the word "solemn" in the Bible, what does it mean?

Solemn:

1. (a.) Marked with religious rites and pomps; enjoined by, or connected with, religion; sacred.
2. (a.) Pertaining to a festival; festive; festal.
3. (a.) Stately; ceremonious; grand.
4. (a.) Fitted to awaken or express serious reflections; marked by seriousness; serious; grave; devout; as, a solemn promise; solemn earnestness.
5. (a.) Real; earnest; downright.
6. (a.) Affectedly grave or serious; as, to put on a solemn face. 7. (a.) Made in form; ceremonious; as, solemn war; conforming with all legal requirements; as, probate in solemn form.

Of course this is the Biblical perspective and doesn't incorporate the ideals of modernism.

Now, if we can only get you to apply the principle, but as experience has taught me, I won't be holding my breath.:sleep:

Is this biblical support for your viewpoint?

Here's the question someone else posed:
"All that was asked for was Bible support for this viewpoint. Since then we have had plenty of accusations of worldliness, fleshliness, se*uality, a refusal to listen to God, etc, but no Bible basis for a such a stance.

Is this view wrong or right? I don't know. But it was expressed that the Bible supports this view and that is the issue.

It would be simple to put the debate to rest if someone could show support for this viewpoint from the Bible."

 

[Salamander]

Is this biblical support for your viewpoint?

Here's the question someone else posed:
"All that was asked for was Bible support for this viewpoint. Since then we have had plenty of accusations of worldliness, fleshliness, se*uality, a refusal to listen to God, etc, but no Bible basis for a such a stance.

Is this view wrong or right? I don't know. But it was expressed that the Bible supports this view and that is the issue.

It would be simple to put the debate to rest if someone could show support for this viewpoint from the Bible."

I can only suppose you're another that is too lazy or just isn't capable of doing a word search in the Bible?

The distinction is Biblical according to the word "solemn". Look it up, define it, apply it to worship music and notice the conservaty of the context historically and NOT using modernistic rationality.

 

[Dale-c]

I sit here and read, keep wondering if someone will at least TRY to show from the Bible how that music with certain rhythm is wrong but I suppose I will keep hearing tradition an man's wisdom.

For those that keep calling us worldy etc that do not hold to the views that add to the scripture, let me remind you that adding to the scripture is a serious sin.

I tried to show what Sal an arron claim to be true from the bible when I was in college.
I simply could not.

These threads may go on and on with name calling but it should be easy to show from scripture, but alas since there is zero evidence of this position, tradition, secular reasoning and name calling are the only methods that can be used.

 

[Aaron]

I tried to show what Sal an arron claim to be true from the bible when I was in college.
I simply could not.

That's because you don't know what music really is.

 

[tinytim]

Enlighten us oh great Aaron.. since we are too uh... what's the word I am looking for... uh.... uh...... Oh well.... to know what music is...

Show us from the Word of God....

 

[Dale-c]

That's because you don't know what music really is.

I just laughed when I read this.
hmm I don't even know what music is?
What pathetic statement.

So, if I knew what music was, then I would be able to see that the Bible condemn certain styles?

I have seen absurd statements on this board before but I must say, that was one of the most ridiculous!

 

[Dale-c]

I am wondering if a) this is music and b) if this is Biblically acceptable.

Keep in mind this is almost word for word from Psalm 137:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvHbd_G2AQY

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This is a third attempt at this topic. It was originally posted here, rather that the Music Ministry forum because it sought Biblical support for a specific statement. After about 30 pages we are doing the same fighting as always results, with no appeal to scripture.

I am closing this third attempt. Music discussions apart from a scriptural discussion should take place in the Music Ministry forum.

If someone wishes to discuss this from scripture, especially Todd, feel free to start a thread on that topic.

Otherwise please carry Music Ministry discussions to that forum.