I got tired of bumping this...

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Bob,

That answer seems besides the point. If I am claiming to have a special gift from God, and you don't believe me, why would you join my Church anyway? Even if what I am saying appears in line with your beliefs, if you do not believe that I am truthful when I say I have a gift (or my believers do), why join my Church?

That teenager "didn't have a church".

She was not asking people to "join her church".

You missed the history part of this.

The group that formed did not form "around Ellen White" as you speculate. In fact - for that early group - her husband James White was far more influential.

If I am Catholic - and all of a sudden I discover that we are supposed to base our beliefs "Sola Scriptura" and "only Baptize believers" and "stop praying to the dead" etc etc -- And then I find a Baptist church that believes exactly as I do - I am going to join that church EVEN if there is a person in it that happens to have the gift of giving, or teaching, or tongues, or prophecy. EVEN if I am not convinced that said person - really has the gift.

As long as I accept the 1Cor 12 concept of spiritual gifts - it does not matter whether "I approve" of person-xyz having it or not.

The doctrinal distinctives are sufficient to cause me to leave the Catholic church and become a Baptist.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
[QB] Trying,

If an SDA did not believe that her writings were inspired and on par with Scripture, then why would they remain an SDA?

Well... hmmmm lets think really hard here and see if we can figure that out.

Oh .. wait! I have it! See Bob? See Bob Post? See Bob not-use Ellen-White-quotes for his "proof"??

Hmmm maybe there are one or two "just like that" using the Bible alone to make their doctrinal case and paying attention to "the details"!

yep! That's it!.

...
</font>[/QUOTE]No change.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Typical SDA deceit.

You previously told us that Ellen White's writings were "obviously" inspired.

Now you want to give us the impression that you don't believe that.

Shame on you.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
It is the others among the 27 Fundamental Beliefs that are compelling EVEN those who do not accept the gift God gave Ellen White.

Since none of them rely upon a "Ellen White said" as their "proof" -- those who join are obviously choosing to accept them on a "sola scriptura" basis.

More deceit.

One of those 27 fundamental beliefs states that Ellen White had the "gift" and that her writings were "authoratative" for "doctrine".

So why can someone cut this part out of the 27 beliefs and still join?

What else can someone cut out of the 27 and still join?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
As long as I accept the 1Cor 12 concept of spiritual gifts - it does not matter whether "I approve" of person-xyz having it or not.

17. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

What part of this says that it's optional to believe?

If it is not doctrine, why is it in #17 of the 27 "fundamental" beliefs?

Why are you spinning this?

If your church believes it and you believe it - why deny it?

 

[BobRyan]

hello! T2U!! Anybody home??

I "DO" believe it. So do most Adventists. (Still there T2U - I would hate to lose you..).

The point is that while we DO believe #17 in that list there are those who believe that the Spirit of Prophecy IS a key identifying mark of the people of God (as in #17 above -- do you see that yet?) -- but they do not believe that Ellen White is an instance of that gift being given to someone.

Are you asking me to "defend" their selection? I don't - I simply observe it as fact.

Are you asking me to change the position of the Adventist church so that it might now refuse to accept a person that accepts #17 - without also accepting that Ellen White was given the gift of prophecy??

Hello! T2U! -- anybody home??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
hello! T2U!! Anybody home??

I "DO" believe it. So do most Adventists. (Still there T2U - I would hate to lose you..).

The point is that while we DO believe #17 in that list there are those who believe that the Spirit of Prophecy IS a key identifying mark of the people of God (as in #17 above -- do you see that yet?) -- but they do not believe that Ellen White is an instance of that gift being given to someone.

Are you asking me to "defend" their selection? I don't - I simply observe it as fact.

Are you asking me to change the position of the Adventist church so that it might now refuse to accept a person that accepts #17 - without also accepting that Ellen White was given the gift of prophecy??

Hello! T2U! -- anybody home??

In Christ,

Bob

Bob, you continue to dodge the questions.

1) What words in #17 tell you that belief in Ellen White as having the "gift" is an optional belief?

2) What other beliefs of the 27 can you modify or reject in part and still become SDA?

 

[BobRyan]

That #17 is the only one that I know of that you can accept part of - but not the full statement as it reads.

As already stated -

You "keep dodging the answer" no matter how direct - is it because you "need to pretend" here as well?

The point is not to get you to "agree to SDA doctrine" here. Just to finally get to the point where you actually know what you are differing with.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
That #17 is the only one that I know of that you can accept part of - but not the full statement as it reads.

As already stated -

You "keep dodging the answer" no matter how direct - is it because you "need to pretend" here as well?

The point is not to get you to "agree to SDA doctrine" here. Just to finally get to the point where you actually know what you are differing with.

In Christ,

Bob

Ms White is not the only doctrine that you can disagree with though is it, Bob?

You can also deny the Trinity and still be SDA.

We've had two on this board in the recent past.

 

[BobRyan]

"Sadly" - T2U - there is no "inquisition" in the SDA church. I think you may find that shocking.

As I already stated - I don't know of any local congregation that would actually baptize anyone into membership that did not accept the Triune Godhead - the 3 persons of the one Triune Godhead are basic and fundamental.

But once in the church - if they choose to lose faith in that doctrine - there is no "inquisitor committee" that "seeks them out" to see if they "still believe".

From your point of view - that "might" be chalked up to the expected "failings" of not seeing the value of "inquisition" style "cleanup crews".

Or maybe not.. Maybe you do understand the issue.

In any case - it has already been stated - only #17 - and at most - only "part" of #17 when joining the Church.

However you focus does seem to dwell a lot on the problems with not having an inquistion when it is not trying to "invent" scenarios out of thin air.

In Christ,

Bob