I Have a Question

[Rippon]

Why assume the worst? Summer is a very busy time for churches. Many churches do not have secretaries. Not trying to give excuses, just different perspectives. Perhaps you are right, or they view it as if you are predestined to be there you will regardless if they answer back
Your best bet would be to visit the churches you are considering and see if it is a place you could see yourself in.

Hey,I'll go along with that WD.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hey,I'll go along with that WD.

Thanks ...however Id rather have dialog with the Pastor prior to going to visit. What if we arent on the same wavelength? Id rather not go there till I develop a rapport. I will call each when I get time tomorrow.

 

[Tom Butler]

Rippon and webdog have a good suggestion. Here's why I agree.

When you go visit a church, you're going to get a pretty good feel for things. You'll have an opportunity to experience their worship, hear the pastor preach, maybe sit in on a Sunday School class, hear the choir sing.

Now, if the pastor is on the ball, he'll get your visitor's card, pick up and phone and call you. He might even want to come and visit you. At the very least you'll get to meet him personally, at his place our yours.

If you don't get that call, that in itself may tell you all you need to know.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rippon and webdog have a good suggestion. Here's why I agree.

When you go visit a church, you're going to get a pretty good feel for things. You'll have an opportunity to experience their worship, hear the pastor preach, maybe sit in on a Sunday School class, hear the choir sing.

Now, if the pastor is on the ball, he'll get your visitor's card, pick up and phone and call you. He might even want to come and visit you. At the very least you'll get to meet him personally, at his place our yours.

If you don't get that call, that in itself may tell you all you need to know.

Well truly Tom Im not that interested in allot of things conventional churches offer.....for example as a PB we dont do SS & we dont like contemporary music bands with drums & such. To me personally, thats periphery & its not my focus. What I want to know is the cut of the pastor....what he thinks, what he believes, how he preaches, his passions, his game plan to move the ball for Christ forward. Then I want to know what he would be willing to do to take a 55 yr old man who 16 months ago hated Christ & was given the gift of Regeneration to help complete the work of the HS. I think that that can be addressed with a phone call.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Remember also I dont have church in my local community, so I will probably have to drive an hour or more to get to one. My perference was always to have a local church where it would be easier but in NJ it appears nothing is easy today. Oh well!

 

[Rippon]

Remember also I dont have church in my local community, so I will probably have to drive an hour or more to get to one. My perference was always to have a local church where it would be easier but in NJ it appears nothing is easy today. Oh well!

I'm sure there has to be something within your orbit. But you'll have to compromise on lesser issues. Finding a PB-like Church you can scratch. The Lord has something close enough that you won't be spending an arm and a leg on gasoline to get there. Visit churches even before you call a given pastor.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm sure there has to be something within your orbit. But you'll have to compromise on lesser issues. Finding a PB-like Church you can scratch. The Lord has something close enough that you won't be spending an arm and a leg on gasoline to get there. Visit churches even before you call a given pastor.

Rippon....your not grasping the problem. There are none within my orbit. Nothing. Shall I go to a Catholic or apostate Methodist church, Lutheren or PC-USA church? Should I sit under a Non-Calvinistic Baptist Pastor who wants to turn me into an Arminian? They tried an SBC plant here & it closed. The closest Reformed Baptist church had to hire a guy from Christian & Missionary Alliance who is just now learning Reformed theology.......what do you think, that Im messing with you?

 

[preacher4truth]

Rippon....your not grasping the problem. There are none within my orbit. Nothing. Shall I go to a Catholic or apostate Methodist church, Lutheren or PC-USA church? Should I sit under a Non-Calvinistic Baptist Pastor who wants to turn me into an Arminian? They tried an SBC plant here & it closed. The closest Reformed Baptist church had to hire a guy from Christian & Missionary Alliance who is just now learning Reformed theology.......what do you think, that Im messing with you?

What part of NJ do you live in?

This preacher is just learning reformed theology, and so are you. Go learn together?

 

[webdog]

Should I sit under a Non-Calvinistic Baptist Pastor who wants to turn me into an Arminian?

I would venture to say that 99.9% of non cal pastors do not want to "turn you into" an Arminian. That's silly.

 

[glfredrick]

Steve's problem is real. Though there "might" be a church somewhere that can meet his expectations, or though he might change a few of his expectations so as to unite with some local congregation, in some areas of the nation north of the Ohio River, church pickings are slim indeed.

If it were me in that scenario (and it has been) I would do one of two things, I would either learn to live with some of the cultural issues (music, etc.) in a local church that at least teaches the Word with reasonable accuracy, or I would start a new congregation, which is not that difficult.

As a for instance, my wife and I are now involved with one of the more dynamic gospel-centered new churches in the nation. Our multiple pastors preach with a fire and respect for the Word and for a sovereign God. We have a music program that is beyond description, with songs and albums often topping the itunes charts in their category. We have multiple, multiple church starts in action, are radically changing neighborhoods. Money is coming in, lives are being changed, and there is SO much activity that one must pick and chose participation levels because there is no way to even begin to keep track of all that we are doing on any given day.

If we were to transfer to another area the culture shock of moving from this church to some smaller congregation, where "plink and plank and plunk" music style from 1940s hymnal, a pastor who last cracked open a new book when he graduated Bible college in the 1960s, and a congregation that still thinks that $5 in the collection plate on Sunday is their Christian duty, would be difficult at best. We could look and look and never find another church like we left, for there, simply, are not many like that (yet). Efforts to bring the new church up to speed would be met with derision, and we would probably end up home alone on most Sundays.

Even if we went out and started a new congregation, it would be years before even something close to what we had would form and become active. I've started new churches, I know how it works, and how "alone" one is in a new town, with the barest minimum of friends and Christian brotherhood, and the cost of driving over 75 miles to the closest church that at least meets some needs. Been there, done that. It is not an easy way to go!

So, in Steve's case, his search is real, and his needs are real, and it is likely that the number of churches that fit his needs are probably very few indeed.

I am a little questioning about the "primitive Baptist" aspect, however, as Steve's testimony suggests that he has only been a Christian believer for the past 16-18 months. How is it that "primitive" Baptist is the only expression that fits the bill?

 

[glfredrick]

I would venture to say that 99.9% of non cal pastors do not want to "turn you into" an Arminian. That's silly.

Actually, no, you are incorrect... They do want you to adopt their theology, just as see often here on the board. I've been in congregations in both directions and had to leave one church because of that very fact.

NNE who did not think precisely like the senior pastor managed to survive in the church or go on to do additional ministry like teach Sunday school, etc. He brought up additional pastoral staff (we're talking a church that runs 2500+) from his home church when he released the existing staff. Anyone who attended Southern Seminary (within 10 miles of the church) is automatically not qualified to do any ministry-related task in the church, simply because of theology.

It happens.

Oh, and in the Reformed congregations where I've attended, I've not seen similar issues. I've not heard from the pulpit in sermons this continual harping on people to choose, nor the continual refrain of how one ought to avoid Calvinists at all cost. What I have heard is God and God's gospel preached, with little regard to trying to instill a particular theology. Would a Calvinistic pastor try to convert the theology of someone who was not a Calvinist? Sure. Just the nature of the game, but the difference lies in where the emphasis is placed in the operation of the church -- in God and God's sovereignty to move and act, or in man, and man's need to choose. At the end of the day, the places where it is all dependent on man's need to move, the content of the sermon will always orient itself on anthropology instead of theology.

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually, no, you are incorrect... They do want you to adopt their theology, just as see often here on the board. I've been in congregations in both directions and had to leave one church because of that very fact.

NNE who did not think precisely like the senior pastor managed to survive in the church or go on to do additional ministry like teach Sunday school, etc. He brought up additional pastoral staff (we're talking a church that runs 2500+) from his home church when he released the existing staff. Anyone who attended Southern Seminary (within 10 miles of the church) is automatically not qualified to do any ministry-related task in the church, simply because of theology.

It happens.

Oh, and in the Reformed congregations where I've attended, I've not seen similar issues. I've not heard from the pulpit in sermons this continual harping on people to choose, nor the continual refrain of how one ought to avoid Calvinists at all cost. What I have heard is God and God's gospel preached, with little regard to trying to instill a particular theology. Would a Calvinistic pastor try to convert the theology of someone who was not a Calvinist? Sure. Just the nature of the game, but the difference lies in where the emphasis is placed in the operation of the church -- in God and God's sovereignty to move and act, or in man, and man's need to choose. At the end of the day, the places where it is all dependent on man's need to move, the content of the sermon will always orient itself on anthropology instead of theology.

Ah yes, by the way we see DoG/Calvinism/Reformed theological beliefs on here relentlessly ridiculed as false, erroneous, adding to Scriptures &c...instead of experiencing this in an non-cal church, like we do on here, we would instead be welcomed with loving arms and embraced within their churches never tormented over our beliefs as being incorrect, just loved all the way to heaven!!!!! :love2:

I also have a bridge for sale that crosses an ocean bay in AZ. :wavey:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because Guy, they express my beliefs to a tee ... IE Theology, Christianity, how they do church, their music, their very thinking process. Ive never seen a church before that expresses all that & more in one package.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would venture to say that 99.9% of non cal pastors do not want to "turn you into" an Arminian. That's silly.

I recall asking Skandalon once what he would do if I came announced that I was a Calvinistic Baptist in his pastored church .... ask him now what he said, see if he recalls

Allan wouldnt answer the question...then when I persisted he stated I'd never go to his church anyway so why answer the question....maybe not all but I would bet there are more than you would like to imagine.

BTW Im not trying to turn this into a P Contest..... Im just illustrating to you the challenges of faith every Christian Believer is going to face eventually as this world slowly concedes to Satan's will so let New Jersey stand as a microcosm reminder to things that will happen eventually. Or look at the UK (once a bastion for Orthodox Beliefs) ....speak to brothers Martin M, David Lamb, Matt Black. Or just give it 10 to 20 years.:thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

Because Guy, they express my beliefs to a tee ... IE Theology, Christianity, how they do church, their music, their very thinking process. Ive never seen a church before that expresses all that & more in one package.

Are you sure? What of their anti-missionary, hyper-Calvinistic, and re-baptizing issues? Seemingly, because of their stance on holding Bible studies apart from an organized congregational setting (joint worship) one would not even be able to form a new congregation! Perhaps that is why there are so few congregations!

And, I'm not picking on PB, per se. Every sect of Baptist has their own difficulties, including my own. Just noting a few areas that take some consideration, especially as you attempt to find a new congregation with which to join (or start).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you sure? What of their anti-missionary, hyper-Calvinistic, and re-baptizing issues? Seemingly, because of their stance on holding Bible studies apart from an organized congregational setting (joint worship) one would not even be able to form a new congregation! Perhaps that is why there are so few congregations!

And, I'm not picking on PB, per se. Every sect of Baptist has their own difficulties, including my own. Just noting a few areas that take some consideration, especially as you attempt to find a new congregation with which to join (or start).

Guy, really I have seen you take people to the woodshed because they do not understand Calvinism & so they misrepresent. Well your doing the same to the Old School Brethren unfortunately. The best person to probably discuss these issues would be either Pinoybaptist and / or Old Union Brother....both are long established Elders in these churches with Pastoral responsibilities. I dont know brother Kyredneck's status (my apologies). But you will not find more humble or down to earth believers (believe me....LOL) or folks deeper in the word then the PB's. And please do not insult any of us with that Hyper Calvinist comment...not true, not true. If you were to meet anyone of that ilk they would not even care to speak to the likes of any of us "Reprobates" (unless you owe them money) LOL

 

[glfredrick]

Guy, really I have seen you take people to the woodshed because they do not understand Calvinism & so they misrepresent. Well your doing the same to the Old School Brethren unfortunately. The best person to probably discuss these issues would be either Pinoybaptist and / or Old Union Brother....both are long established Elders in these churches with Pastoral responsibilities. I dont know brother Kyredneck's status (my apologies). But you will not find more humble or down to earth believers (believe me....LOL) or folks deeper in the word then the PB's. And please do not insult any of us with that Hyper Calvinist comment...not true, not true. If you were to meet anyone of that ilk they would not even care to speak to the likes of any of us "Reprobates" (unless you owe them money) LOL

Like I said above, I am not picking a fight with Primitive Baptists, and I have found, like you, that our brothers of that persuasion are humble men of God!

But that does not remove the fact that certain tenets of PB doctrine are what they are, hence the questions I have raised. The questions are not offered in a pejorative sense, nor are they intended to harm anyone -- just a statement of facts about what PB say they believe from a PB website designed to do just that. I am perfectly willing to change my views upon evidence other, for the last thing i wish to do is to un-accurately represent a brother of sister in the Lord. I may disagree with their stance, but one of my driving forces in theological study is to speak truthfully and accurately as to what i say, especially concerning what others hold as their doctrines. No need to carve out rabbit trails and strawmen -- just the truthful differences between us is theological fodder for a lifetime!

Edit: Here is the web site I used:

http://www.pb.org/

 

[preacher4truth]

Guy, really I have seen you take people to the woodshed because they do not understand Calvinism & so they misrepresent. Well your doing the same to the Old School Brethren unfortunately. The best person to probably discuss these issues would be either Pinoybaptist and / or Old Union Brother....both are long established Elders in these churches with Pastoral responsibilities. I dont know brother Kyredneck's status (my apologies). But you will not find more humble or down to earth believers (believe me....LOL) or folks deeper in the word then the PB's. And please do not insult any of us with that Hyper Calvinist comment...not true, not true. If you were to meet anyone of that ilk they would not even care to speak to the likes of any of us "Reprobates" (unless you owe them money) LOL

Guys comments about PB's is not incorrect. Many of them hold the beliefs he's described. As a matter of fact, I was given a link describing these exact beliefs when I asked one about evangelism/missions.

My question wasn't greeted with much kindness, but I asked in innocence. The link provided my answers, and the persons answers to my questions "Do you preach evangelistically to reach the lost, believe in sending missionaries?" were never placed on the forum publicly. After reading the link, I know why.

PB's are typically the anti-missionary/evangelism side, while Missionary Baptists would be the evangelistic/missionary supporting side.

- Peace

 

[glfredrick]

As an aside to this entire discussion, I am of the mind that there are no exemptions to the Berean doctrine, i.e., where we search the scriptures to examine beliefs and doctrines to see if they completely match up to the Word of God.

As a personal philosophy of scholarship and ministry, I find that I have nothing at all to gain from mis-representing any individual or group, so I strive to know them -- from their own writings -- as best possible. When I am speculating or considering something to which I am unsure at some level of reasonable doubt, I will say so. If I feel that I am on solid ground, I will also make that rather evident in my writing style.

I feel that anyone claiming the name of Christ ought to be free (and able!) to lay out their personal or group's theology for all to see. If or when the doctrines need to be held close to the vest, not made public, not discussed so as to not offend someone, etc., then there may be just cause for further investigation. One such instance readily comes to mind, the practice of secret societies that often operate in concert with certain Baptist groups.

Christians ought not have secrets from each other and especially from the world. We are not the high priests of gnosticism (or Catholicism!) where only the initiated hold the truth, and novitiates cannot or do not understand. If exposing what someone or some group believes is problematic, then perhaps what they believe does not match up to orthodox Christian or Scriptural belief, hence the Berean test.

Oh, and that applies to me as well... :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh so that internet website provides you all the info your require to call PB's Hyper-Calvinists...really?

Or are you guys are just “casting asparagus on us ?” now I'm getting humgry for steamed vegetables! Grits.....not so much. LOL