Joseph_Botwinick
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Guess what...they are one and the same.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
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I Heard An Agnostic Ask These Questions...
- Thread starter kiriath_jearim
- Start date
Whatever is on to the main point, the original question is "why did he create them". That is the question that both the C's and A's have to answer.
Me4 missed the point again.
So let's look at it this way, if ANYONE goes to hell, for ANY REASON, why were they even created to begin with. To the agnostic, it is cruelty either way. The agnostic doesn't care about your loving God and his gospel, Me4. It's still unthinkably cruel to the agnostic, even if the poor slug did reject Christ.
Now for the short answer to the short question:
Q: Why did he create them?
A: For His glory.
Now the protest comes from all mankind: "HOW does this bring Him glory?"
We christians, both C and A, say it is, in the case of the lost, the execution of JUSTICE that glorifies God. This glory is not the same as the glory received of the saved. It is not PLEASURE. But it is, nevertheless, glory. To this we must attest, or let us join the agnostic in his doubts.
I've addressed these comments to the Christians of this forum, not to an agnostic. If I were speaking to an agnostic, I would steer toward that same truth, but I would go through the gospel. If I can give Me4 credit for something, let me say in agreement with him that I would tell that agnostic that if he, himself, were to go to hell, he would have to go there having overcome the barrier of the Cross itself.
Me4 missed the point again.
So let's look at it this way, if ANYONE goes to hell, for ANY REASON, why were they even created to begin with. To the agnostic, it is cruelty either way. The agnostic doesn't care about your loving God and his gospel, Me4. It's still unthinkably cruel to the agnostic, even if the poor slug did reject Christ.
Now for the short answer to the short question:
Q: Why did he create them?
A: For His glory.
Now the protest comes from all mankind: "HOW does this bring Him glory?"
We christians, both C and A, say it is, in the case of the lost, the execution of JUSTICE that glorifies God. This glory is not the same as the glory received of the saved. It is not PLEASURE. But it is, nevertheless, glory. To this we must attest, or let us join the agnostic in his doubts.
I've addressed these comments to the Christians of this forum, not to an agnostic. If I were speaking to an agnostic, I would steer toward that same truth, but I would go through the gospel. If I can give Me4 credit for something, let me say in agreement with him that I would tell that agnostic that if he, himself, were to go to hell, he would have to go there having overcome the barrier of the Cross itself.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Double Agreed. (which is inferred from the position of agreed)
I think all have "missed the point",
WHY
was "our faith" in Jesus included in the plan of salvation??
Under predestination, Faith doesn't matter, faith has no part in that plan, its 100% God's decision, with no other factors (our faith) involved in the decision.
"WHY" does God require us to have "FAITH" before he will save,
what's the "PURPOSE" of "Our Faith" in the plan of salvation??
Calvibaptist
New Member
I think all have "missed the point",
WHY
was "our faith" in Jesus included in the plan of salvation??
Under predestination, Faith doesn't matter, faith has no part in that plan, its 100% God's decision, with no other factors (our faith) involved in the decision.
"WHY" does God require us to have "FAITH" before he will save,
what's the "PURPOSE" of "Our Faith" in the plan of salvation?? </font>[/QUOTE]You give me a headache, Me4.
kiriath_jearim said:
1. If God is all-merciful, why would He create puny human souls with a sinful nature and punish them forever and ever since they can't help but live in sin?
The first question is based on false premises. God didn't create humanity with a sinful nature, he created them upright. Sin is man's fault.
2. Why does God get satisfaction from the eternal suffering of these wretches since He knew from the beginning that they would not believe the Gospel?
And the second question is a loaded one. Who says God gets "satisfaction" from suffering?
1. If God is all-merciful, why would He create puny human souls with a sinful nature and punish them forever and ever since they can't help but live in sin?
The first question is based on false premises. God didn't create humanity with a sinful nature, he created them upright. Sin is man's fault.
2. Why does God get satisfaction from the eternal suffering of these wretches since He knew from the beginning that they would not believe the Gospel?
And the second question is a loaded one. Who says God gets "satisfaction" from suffering?
I think all have "missed the point",
WHY
was "our faith" in Jesus included in the plan of salvation??
Under predestination, Faith doesn't matter, faith has no part in that plan, its 100% God's decision, with no other factors (our faith) involved in the decision.
"WHY" does God require us to have "FAITH" before he will save,
what's the "PURPOSE" of "Our Faith" in the plan of salvation?? </font>[/QUOTE]You give me a headache, Me4. </font>[/QUOTE]God "NEVER" does anything unless there is a "PURPOSE" behind it,
What's the Purpose of requiring "US", to have faith in Jesus?????????????
Take two Tylenol, call me in the morning.
Me4Him, your indiscriminate use of quotation marks, caps, etc., is confusing. You make it difficult to discern the point of your post by altering its content. That gives rise to more than one interpretation. If you'd just leave those out, your point would be much clearer.
Call me the grammar police if you will ~~ that's just the way it is.
Call me the grammar police if you will ~~ that's just the way it is.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Explain the "PURPOSE" of "US" having "FAITH" before God will save,
We'll discuss my method of "emphasizing" key words later.
</font>[/QUOTE]Romans 11:33-36 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?" 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?" 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.This is similar to a thread in which I was involved on another forum which I think dealt with God and the existence of evil. What follows is one of my posts that I thought would be relevant on this thread:
1. If God knew beforehand that mankind would fall into sin, then why did He create them in the first place? Would it not have been more loving to not create man, rather than creating man, knowing that some (or possibly most) would choose to reject Him and go to eternal torment?
Possible Answer: Although God knew that some would choose to reject Him, He also knew that some would accept His offer of salvation and be able to fellowship with Him forever. His offer of salvation was and is to all of mankind. Those that choose to reject Him do it of their own accord. Would it be fair to those that accept His offer of salvation that they should not have been created and thus be unable to fellowship with God in glory for eternity in order to keep those who choose to reject Jesus from spending eternity in the lake of fire?
2. (In response to the answer for #1) why then did not God just create those people that He knew would be saved and not create those that He knew would reject Him? Would not it have been more loving to not create the people in the first place that He knew would spend eternity in the lake of fire? One could also follow this with the question of why did God create the angel that would later become the devil since God knew beforehand that this would happen? Without Satan, there would not have been a tempter in the garden to tempt Eve (assuming that Eve would not have fallen anyway which I guess she still could have).
Answer: I have actually thought about this question more than once. What I have thought about this is that I know that God is loving and just. There is no way I can comprehend the mind of God. And again, although God knew beforehand that some people would reject Him and be lost, His offer of salvation was and is to all people. Since humans are not "all-knowing", there is no way we can dictate what God should or should not have done because God does know everything and we are not God. A lot of times, some people will say things like, "If God is truly a God of love then He would not have done this action or if God is truly holy, then He should not have done that action." But to say things like this, one would have to know the mind of God.
1. If God knew beforehand that mankind would fall into sin, then why did He create them in the first place? Would it not have been more loving to not create man, rather than creating man, knowing that some (or possibly most) would choose to reject Him and go to eternal torment?
Possible Answer: Although God knew that some would choose to reject Him, He also knew that some would accept His offer of salvation and be able to fellowship with Him forever. His offer of salvation was and is to all of mankind. Those that choose to reject Him do it of their own accord. Would it be fair to those that accept His offer of salvation that they should not have been created and thus be unable to fellowship with God in glory for eternity in order to keep those who choose to reject Jesus from spending eternity in the lake of fire?
2. (In response to the answer for #1) why then did not God just create those people that He knew would be saved and not create those that He knew would reject Him? Would not it have been more loving to not create the people in the first place that He knew would spend eternity in the lake of fire? One could also follow this with the question of why did God create the angel that would later become the devil since God knew beforehand that this would happen? Without Satan, there would not have been a tempter in the garden to tempt Eve (assuming that Eve would not have fallen anyway which I guess she still could have).
Answer: I have actually thought about this question more than once. What I have thought about this is that I know that God is loving and just. There is no way I can comprehend the mind of God. And again, although God knew beforehand that some people would reject Him and be lost, His offer of salvation was and is to all people. Since humans are not "all-knowing", there is no way we can dictate what God should or should not have done because God does know everything and we are not God. A lot of times, some people will say things like, "If God is truly a God of love then He would not have done this action or if God is truly holy, then He should not have done that action." But to say things like this, one would have to know the mind of God.
Hello kiriath_jearim.
He tells us that Esau was to receive no mercy in order that His purpose in election might stand. Rom 9:11.
john.
God is not all-merciful, God says He does not have mercy on some but says He has mercy on who He has mercy on and that is not everybody because in the same breath He says He will harden whoever He wishes. Rom 9:19.
Because He glorifies Himself in His Sovereignty. DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
He tells us that Esau was to receive no mercy in order that His purpose in election might stand. Rom 9:11.
john.
